From Bob Gumm

[Bob Gumm]

OK, you wanted my input here it is.

(1) The EZBoard technology is not up to par. I did say if a better board could be found we'd consider it, but that we should not rush into anything and make the changeover gradual so everyone would be able to find it. If you'll remember we had just renewed our contract with EZBoard when the last crash occurred and EZBoard promised they would make the board better. We all agreed even if reluctantly to continue with EZBoard since the fee was non-refundable and remain open to other options.

(2) Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make it right. Everyone has gotten so infuriated about the guy that so badly needed motor mounts that he tried everything he could to get them. However, not everything is as it seems. (A) When we were first contacted about the motor mounts for this guy, it was from a repair shop wanting to purchase them. We explained how they or the owner could buy them using PayPal or sending us a postal money order. They never placed the order or sent any payment. (B) When contacted again, we explained to some guy in Florida that they could be purchased via PayPal and told him the shipping costs. Still no purchase was ever made. (C) The owner finally contacts us and we give him the same information. Still no payment is ever received. What are we supposed to do, give them to him? It's one thing to claim you're being ignored, but it's something else entirely when you are simply getting folks roused up when the solution has been provided to you several times over. If he wants the mounts I don't know how to make it any clearer, send the money and the mounts will be sent out immediately.

(3) Barebones, you said you sent an e-mail asking about mounts for DjTy and got no reply. Sorry, we can't locate the e-mail. However, it may have been one that provided us with DjTy's e-mail address and we simply replied to him. Since dealing with customers is a private affair, we didn't courtesy copy you. That being said, if we did get an e-mail from you thanks for your assistance.

(4) What are we supposed to say we're sorry for, not sending mounts to someone who hasn't sent us a payment?

(5) E-mail and pictures. We get so much e-mail that we can't keep up. Sometimes I download it to my pocket PC and take it with me so I can try to read it. However, pictures don't come through to the Pocket PC automatically and so I don't always get to see the pictures. Also, we all have seen how reliable the FTP folder was. Someone went in there and deleted just about everything and I had to restore what I could from a backup I had. Needless to say, this system didn't work as well as the software I tried to get my service to use. Their tech guy was unwilling to use anything he hadn't heard of. Sorry your pictures didn't get posted. I hear there's a new message board that makes it easy and secure (this one). Even if I don't enjoy the negative publicity you guys are throwing at me, I don't mind the prospect of using a board like this. It's what I wanted my service to do, unfortunately we don't always get what we want.

(6) "Taking it personally". Of course we're going to take it personal when people are making statements like "why don't they just apologize" when we haven't done anything wrong. When the administrator of this board suggests that someone send him a set of our motor mounts so he can copy the design and start selling them. That’s called stealing intellectual property. Making statements like "the Gumm's were completely against making any improvements to the board" are again wholly untrue. We merely stated that the EZBoard annual fee had just been renewed and EZBoard doesn't give refunds. So it made sense to us as well as others to use the site while we could and even stated that everyone should be on the lookout for a better board program or service. We had found information suggesting that a PHP-based board with open source code is very vulnerable to hacking or malicious code. A report was recently released comparing Microsoft Windows (and variants) to Linux and the pros and cons. In the end, Linux had too many cons (security vulnerabilities linked directly to the open source code).

(7) We’ve never sought control over the marketplace, we’ve simply pointed out that there are so many niches that anyone with mechanical talent could take them on. Other folks have made fiberglass Monza Mirage air dams, cowl seals, traction bars, custom tie-rod adjusters, and more. You don’t see me buying their products and duplicating them to make a buck. I buy them and use them on my car and support their contribution to keeping these cars on the road. Don’t steal my ideas and designs; I’ve helped keep these cars going as much as anyone. When a company I was working with ceased making a specific part I didn’t go behind their back and start making them, I asked them if I could. Their reply was a simple “no, but if you contact us for 2,000 units we’d be glad to make some for youâ€

[ColinOpseth]

Wow..
Bob, stay online. I will respond to this as fast as my 80wpm typing will allow.

Colin

[ColinOpseth]

OK, you wanted my input here it is.

(1) The EZBoard technology is not up to par. I did say if a better board could be found we'd consider it, but that we should not rush into anything and make the changeover gradual so everyone would be able to find it. If you'll remember we had just renewed our contract with EZBoard when the last crash occurred and EZBoard promised they would make the board better. We all agreed even if reluctantly to continue with EZBoard since the fee was non-refundable and remain open to other options.

My response to your first point:
Yes, you said you would consider it. You also slammed me for plagurism like I don't know what that is. I am a graduate with a B.A. and am well aware of what I was doing. Many of the others who viewed the site also viewed what I was doing as an example of what could be done, not something that was production-ready.

If you had a car that you kept throwing money at and all it did was break down when would you call it quits and take your losses and run? Do you honestly think that ezBoard gives two shits about your site? They want your money and ad revenue. That's the truth. Can you tell me what security holes they fixed after their servers were hacked and over 1000 of their forums were deleted?

How long would you stay if that had happened? If that happened to me I would have immediately done a chargeback on my credit card and WALKED.

(2) Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make it right. Everyone has gotten so infuriated about the guy that so badly needed motor mounts that he tried everything he could to get them. However, not everything is as it seems. (A) When we were first contacted about the motor mounts for this guy, it was from a repair shop wanting to purchase them. We explained how they or the owner could buy them using PayPal or sending us a postal money order. They never placed the order or sent any payment. (B) When contacted again, we explained to some guy in Florida that they could be purchased via PayPal and told him the shipping costs. Still no purchase was ever made. (C) The owner finally contacts us and we give him the same information. Still no payment is ever received. What are we supposed to do, give them to him? It's one thing to claim you're being ignored, but it's something else entirely when you are simply getting folks roused up when the solution has been provided to you several times over. If he wants the mounts I don't know how to make it any clearer, send the money and the mounts will be sent out immediately.

My response to number 2 is:
Bob, as far as I'm concerned that's a pretty piss-poor excuse. You had absolutely no problem finding this site or having your wife delete the thread linking this site on your forum. That's after you have not posted since January 3, 2006.

Fine, call it as you will. The guy didn't contact you personally. The shop that he contacted to purchase the mounts didn't purchase them from you. Call a spade a spade.

If you want to be considered pro-active you need to demonstrate that. You could have contacted him personally and told him that you hadn't received the funds. Regardless, I didn't start this forum because a guy didn't get his mounts. Trust me, my arguments for switching boards go 'far' beyond that.

(3) Barebones, you said you sent an e-mail asking about mounts for DjTy and got no reply. Sorry, we can't locate the e-mail. However, it may have been one that provided us with DjTy's e-mail address and we simply replied to him. Since dealing with customers is a private affair, we didn't courtesy copy you. That being said, if we did get an e-mail from you thanks for your assistance.

As far as I'm concerned, Reid did something he didn't need to do. He tried to contact you personally because he has a vested interest in another H-Body member's ability to get a car back on the road. Why a vested interest? The more people that walk away from H-Bodies only makes it harder to get parts in the future.

I think what Reid did was commendable. No, you didn't feel it was any of his "business." That's fine. But you can't fault Reid for trying to help a fellow member who has one of the few H-Bodies in the Caribbean.

(4) What are we supposed to say we're sorry for, not sending mounts to someone who hasn't sent us a payment?

My response to number 4 is:
Don't be facetious. You're mincing words. When I was running my wheel and tire business I could have said the same thing many times. "The guy is a tire kicker and it's my fault?"

That doesn't wash. As I said in my response to number 3, you could have been pro-active. He posted MANY times on the boards his frustrations in trying to get the mounts.

(5) E-mail and pictures. We get so much e-mail that we can't keep up. Sometimes I download it to my pocket PC and take it with me so I can try to read it. However, pictures don't come through to the Pocket PC automatically and so I don't always get to see the pictures. Also, we all have seen how reliable the FTP folder was. Someone went in there and deleted just about everything and I had to restore what I could from a backup I had. Needless to say, this system didn't work as well as the software I tried to get my service to use. Their tech guy was unwilling to use anything he hadn't heard of. Sorry your pictures didn't get posted. I hear there's a new message board that makes it easy and secure (this one). Even if I don't enjoy the negative publicity you guys are throwing at me, I don't mind the prospect of using a board like this. It's what I wanted my service to do, unfortunately we don't always get what we want.

Bob, that is one of the most ridiculous things you've said yet. On February 12, 2006 I sent you a VERY detailed email explaining why the pictures were being deleted. I even demonstrated EXACTLY how to replicate what was happening. I also explained how dangerous your FTP site was to the integrity to your site. I received NOTHING in return. So, for the benefit of all the users here I am going to quote my email to you in its entirety with headers so all here can see my attempts to help your site in the first place!!

Secondly, if your web host is unwilling to help YOU CHANGE YOUR PROVIDER. Bob, I may be young but I'm not gullible. You should not let people walk all over you like that. Your host sucks. Sorry for being blunt, but anyone that is rude on the phone with me when I PAY THEM MONEY damn well had better have a supervisor I can talk to.

From: Colin Opseth <copseth@gmail.com> Mailed-By: gmail.com
To: bobgumm@v8monza.com
Date: Feb 12, 2006 8:01 PM
Subject: Bob, a few suggestions about V8Monza
Reply | Reply to all | Forward | Print | Add sender to Contacts list | Delete this message | Report phishing | Show original | Message text garbled?
hey Bob,
This is Colin from the boards. I'm the guy that offered to help you before and you declined my assistance.

I want to remind you that having public access to your FTP is an extremely poor judgement call. Not only is there the possibility of people you don't know uploading/deleting any or all images but they also have the ability to upload 'code', such as PHP and other extraneous information.

To demonstrate this, load the following webpagesin your browser:
http://www.v8monza.com/voodoo_perf/robots.txt
http://v8monza.com/voodoo_perf/V8VegaMan/AcctPref.jpg

Those pages can be loaded even though directory listing access has been denied.

If I were you I would 'highly' recommend an image gallery solution such as Coppermine. It is free and a helluva lot more secure than trusting people you don't know. Everything is done through any web browser and you can set the permissions on the files, as the 777 (world) permissions you currently use are extremely dangerous. As well, keep in mind that any code can be executed wtih 777 permissions and should someone want to damage your site they can at will. I would ask (no, demand) that all files be chmod 644 on upload at the very 'least'. JPG code is very easy to exploit.

I will say this. I resell webspace and if I had a customer doing this I would shut his account down immediately for my safety. Just go to the directory / (root) in the FTP and you can see any of the clients' folders on your webserver! Wow.

Best of luck,
Colin Opseth

(6) "Taking it personally". Of course we're going to take it personal when people are making statements like "why don't they just apologize" when we haven't done anything wrong. When the administrator of this board suggests that someone send him a set of our motor mounts so he can copy the design and start selling them. That’s called stealing intellectual property. Making statements like "the Gumm's were completely against making any improvements to the board" are again wholly untrue. We merely stated that the EZBoard annual fee had just been renewed and EZBoard doesn't give refunds. So it made sense to us as well as others to use the site while we could and even stated that everyone should be on the lookout for a better board program or service. We had found information suggesting that a PHP-based board with open source code is very vulnerable to hacking or malicious code. A report was recently released comparing Microsoft Windows (and variants) to Linux and the pros and cons. In the end, Linux had too many cons (security vulnerabilities linked directly to the open source code).

Bob. How much worse can phpBB be when you ezBoard lost all of your information repeatedly!! You have no access to my server butI have a discrete and 100% secure email address on GMail that all of my servers upload mySQL database backups weekly as a cron job. Yes, you read that right. All of my databases are backed up WEEKLY, automatically and autonomously. Database losses? Not on my watch.

I never once told you to run your site on Linux so I have on idea why you're bringing Linux into this conversation. Very few servers run Linux anyway. They use FreeBSD or NetBSD almost exclusively. And compared to Windows in which it is loaded as a single-user environment, at least Linux forces people to use different accounts. If someone wants to run his system as root all the time, he's an idiot.

I checked the United States Patent Office. You have no patent on record for your mounts. As far as I can tell you haven't even applied for a patent. Besides, I would not even copy your mounts verbatim anyway. I have a design idea I've been working on anyway. I wanted to get a hand on a set of stock V8 Monza mounts so I could get an idea what the installed height is. I could care less about copying your stuff. I don't even use your mounts on my car anyway. My car has Hooker mounts on it.

As for PHP vulnerabilities: Anything can be hacked. The NSA has been hacked. The FBI has been hacked. The CIA has been hacked. I have been hacked two times in the 6 years I've been running phpBB. I wouldn't call that "insecure," especially considering both times were my fault in that I did not install patches to phpBB that closed widely-known holes in phpBB's source. I reiterate, I got hacked because I was lazy.


[quote="Bob Gumm"]
(7) We’ve never sought control over the marketplace, we’ve simply pointed out that there are so many niches that anyone with mechanical talent could take them on. Other folks have made fiberglass Monza Mirage air dams, cowl seals, traction bars, custom tie-rod adjusters, and more. You don’t see me buying their products and duplicating them to make a buck. I buy them and use them on my car and support their contribution to keeping these cars on the road. Don’t steal my ideas and designs; I’ve helped keep these cars going as much as anyone. When a company I was working with ceased making a specific part I didn’t go behind their back and start making them, I asked them if I could. Their reply was a simple “no, but if you contact us for 2,000 units we’d be glad to make some for youâ€

[ColinOpseth]

As an addendum I will back up a couple of my arguments. First, the JPG security hole "is" real: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1659721,00.asp

In my email to you on February 12, 2006 I stated that JPG is dangerous. Allowing people to upload any JPG onto your server and not knowing who they are is foolish.

Second, you need to research the argument that you made that Linux is less secure than Windows. Linux is "inherently" more secure than Windows but any moron can screw that up. Here's a good article that will rebutt your argument: http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS6909870737.html
A good quote from the article talks about security in that "while Linux is far more secure than Windows, it is not invulnerable. No operating system is. Security is a process, not an operating system or a product."

Third, any webhost not familiar with Coppermine image gallery is not a webhost I would deal with. Coppermine image gallery is one of the highest rated image gallery scripts on the net. I specifically stated that is what you should use on V8Monza.com for that very reason. I still suggest you upgrade to that, anyway.

Fourth, you said that you would explore other options. What other forums have you explored? YaBB, phpBB, InvisionPowerBoard, vBulletin or Infopop? Which ones are free? Which ones are not? Which ones make you buy a new license annually? I thought I gave you a pretty good rundown of why you should switch to phpBB. Your response? Silence.

No matter what, I stand by my decision to make this forum accessible to your users. I did not force anyone to migrate. I have not emailed any of your users. They are here on their own volition. That says something.

Take care,
Colin Opseth

[Fastmax32168]

Its too bad this thread even exists. And all of that above is way too much to read and digest. And its a pointless endeavor for you guys to have a long open debate on this point or that point in public. We all know already that nobody will win, everybody loses.
I came here for one reason. EZ board sucks and nobody was moderating it. I think nearly everyone else did too.
The original plan was to have this be the V8 monza board. That is the best plan.
Its too bad Bob has taken this as personal attack. This attitude is going to turn what could have been a great thing (V8 Monza having a really cool board with Colin moderating while Bob was off defending the country) into a fractured community.
I dont think any of the plans in the poll even come close to The original intent of this board so I didnt vote. Bob and Colin you guys need to put away the guns and come to the peace conference.
Roy

[greg72]

Roy speaks the truth. It would seem that we have a viable alternative to ezboard. It would be a damn shame to not combine it as THE forum for hbody enthusiats while on @ V8Monza.com.

[vegatex]

I've met Bob Gumm personally. I've had breakfast with him at Cannon AFB. I also know him by reputation--- he and I were in the same AF Reserve wing, although separated by a couple years. He's an honest, sharp individual who I have enjoyed doing buiness with and sharing the brotherhood of our profession and our hobby. I do NOT like the attacks on Bob's reputation or charachter implied here.

That being said, I'm no fan of the EZ Board format, and I'm happy to see us move to a board more like the ones I've enjoyed for F-body and Turbo Buick folks.

As far as the business end, there are two sides to every story-- Bob is not the type to air someone else's dirty laundry in public, so we only got one side of the story about the motor mounts. I think Bob's explaination suffices.

I want to remind everyone that before you go trashing Bob Gumm, think about where our hobby and projects would be without his initiative and ingenuity-- the adapters he developed brought the cost of front brake conversions down by hundreds of dollars. The V-8 engine mounts he offers can't be found in a parts store-- the originals are out of production, and any old ones you find on eBay are just that-- OLD and probably worn out! He got Griffin to design and build radiators specifically for our cars-- before that, you had to mod the k-brace and use a generic radiator with no A/T cooling. He organized a group buy, but you can still get one of the radiators today at the non-group price. Bob has never tried to dominate the market or trashed anyone else's ingenuity-- he offers good quality products at a fair price for the small production runs he has to deal with. His shipping isn't always the fastest, but when you look at the deployment cycle the of the Air Force fighter community, it's remarkable he's able to serve as many customers as well as he does.

Criticisms of EZ Board are fair game-- but when you start trashing Bob Gumm, you are WAY out of line.

David S. English, Lt Col, USAF (Retired--after 24 years of service)

[SunbirdMan]

OK, you wanted my input here it is.

.... We all agreed even if reluctantly to continue with EZBoard since the fee was non-refundable and remain open to other options.....
.......We merely stated that the EZBoard annual fee had just been renewed and EZBoard doesn't give refunds. So it made sense to us as well as others to use the site while we could and even stated that everyone should be on the lookout for a better board program or service.

.... We’ve never sought control over the marketplace, ......

Bob,
I remember Colin's original post offering FREE hosting. I remember many people did not agree that it made sense to stay with EZBoard even though it was paid up. We were willing to pay to host elsewhere. We were on the look out for a better board service but someone again paid into EZBoard. Was that you?
I speculated that you wanted to control the marketplace. I could not understand why you were so reluctant to switch boards. It didn't make any sense to me.
Is there a patent pending on your mounts as it says on v8monza.com?

[cjbiagi]

I have to agree that some of the conversations were a bit out of line. Bob has done a great service to his country as well as the H-Body community over the years. If there are better sites to be had out there that's fine, but let's not fragment what was one big happy family. While Bob may not have been able to post very often he and Dolores have kept this site running for years and gave us an opportunity to grow as a group as well as come up with some good deals with Griffin for instance.
As far as his parts business, I didn't have any real dealings with that. I do believe that if you are going to offer parts or products for sale you should be able to deliver them in a reasonable length of time. I'm not sure if this was or wasn't happening but it is only fair to buyers to get their parts once paid for.
I'm still getting used to the new board but this one did serve us for many years, although with some problems and short-comings, but we wouldn't be where we are if it didn't exist. Let's not forget where we were, and where we are, and how we got there. I did most of my modifications long before there was any group. I had to learn on my own what would interchange and work. Look how much easier it is now with the wealth of information and all the people you can go to ask for help. You can ask almost any question and get some intelligent answers. This site was way ahead of the old Yahoo site and I thank Bob for dedicating his time and effort for getting the group established.
Clyde
1975 Monza 2+2 My Monza

[ColinOpseth]

Before I lock this thread I am going to say one thing. I do not believe I have "character assassinated" Bob Gumm. The only reason I offered my services in the first place was because the users were complaining.

True, I didn't like ezBoard but I wasn't out to just stir up trouble.

And I never called Bob a fake, a cheat or a liar. I said that he is "not administering his board." That doesn't call him a bad person, that is saying he does not look at his board often enough to monitor what is going on.

I tried to tread softly when I stated in my first post that I'm sure he IS a good guy. I mean, I know those mounts took a long time to figure out. I wish I knew him in person because I'm sure this all would have been solved a long time ago.

Keep in mind that my character was attacked, too. I was accused of trying to "steal" his website when I made the test server.

Either way, I am also sorry this thread exists. But I am not going to lock someone else's thread or delete it without first defending myself or responding to allegations.

I wish Bob would have called me first, before posting, like I requested when I left a message on his machine yesterday.

Later,
Colin