Rant about working on cars/Vegas

[avewhtboy]

So I decided to order some adjustable front lower control arms to solve my wheels not being centered in the wheel wells. I thought this would be
a good time to address some of the steering problems encountered during the autocross events, namely steering is way to slow to keep up on a tight
autocross course. We all know the Vega has the turning radius of a dump truck and it gets worse when you install the S10 spindles.

My car has manual steering so I decided while it was apart to convert to power steering, as I had all the components that were removed from my Pontiac Astre.
It will all bolt right in, except for the power steering pump and hoses etc.

First problem, Radiator interferes with power steering box, as the power box is longer and wider. Solution at first was to clearance the radiator support to give about half an inch of clearance. I was not happy with that knowing what I really wanted to do was move the radiator forward enough to move my electric fans from in front of the radiator to behind the radiator. This caused me to cut the bottom cross support out completely and need to fabricate a new one to support the radiator and tie the frame rails back together.

Now that this is completed I realize my fans will not fit the other side of the radiator due to the hose outlets now being in the way. I have another fan that will work so crisis avoided there.

Next is the dreaded centerlink interference with the oil pan. I think a couple spacers is going to solve this relatively easy, but one more problem that was not
anticipated by me. I can with certain say the manual centerlink is much lower than the power steering link, probably at least half an inch.

Hopefully soon I can button this modification up and test drive the results. Going to be interesting to drive a Vega with power steering, never done that before!!!

[chevyart]

PS and Manual centerlinks have the same drop. there is no difference in the clearance factor.if you have both links, put them together and you will see. if there is a difference, then you have one fro another type of car. art

[chevyart]

PS and Manual centerlinks have the same drop. there is no difference in the clearance factor.if you have both links, put them together and you will see. if there is a difference, then you have one fro another type of car. art

[BadBowtie]

Vega's always seem to have challenges even for simple modifications. Having swapped from manual to PS I had a lot of "fun" getting everything to fit, I wasnt able to put my #1 sparkplug in without ordering a shorter one, not to mention the fittings being so close to the headers. I never took note of the centerlink but there are pictures here http://forums.h-body.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24386&hilit=centerlink. Having had manual steering for a few years now with the v8 it wasnt all bad but now that I have power steering it feels awesome. Only downside is lock to lock was so far away I never really had issues with my current tires rubbing the inner wells but now having lock to lock in 2.5-3 turns its become an issue. If you want more turning radius and your wheels clear you might try removing the steering stop plate on the lower control arms (spindle will hit the table instead) or adding some sort of steering stop and cutting the s10 spindle steering stops out completely. Not sure how much you could gain modifying that.

[avewhtboy]

PS and Manual centerlinks have the same drop. there is no difference in the clearance factor.if you have both links, put them together and you will see. if there is a difference, then you have one fro another type of car. art

Hey Art, I have done a lot of research on this since encountering the problem and I found your custom center link solution.

It's entirely possible my car had the incorrect center link on it. It had the small manual box which requires a longer centerlink than the power box. Also I think I read
the manual idler arm and and pitman arm are an inch longer for the manual box which would account for it hanging lower? I had about half inch of clearance before I did the swap and now there is none.

I read where I think it was speedphreakes journal, where he ovaled out the holes for the pitman and steering box and rotated them down slightly to correct this, but then I read where he parked his car because it was too unstable from bumpsteer.

My car had a big block in it so there is plenty of clearance everywhere for me to raise the motor slightly (qtr to half inch) without creating more issues I hope. If not then I may have to look at modifying the oil pan for clearance.

All I know for sure is thank gawd for H-Body forum and google to lead me out of the dark somewhat.

[avewhtboy]

Vega's always seem to have challenges even for simple modifications. Having swapped from manual to PS I had a lot of "fun" getting everything to fit, I wasnt able to put my #1 sparkplug in without ordering a shorter one, not to mention the fittings being so close to the headers. I never took note of the centerlink but there are pictures here http://forums.h-body.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24386&hilit=centerlink. Having had manual steering for a few years now with the v8 it wasnt all bad but now that I have power steering it feels awesome. Only downside is lock to lock was so far away I never really had issues with my current tires rubbing the inner wells but now having lock to lock in 2.5-3 turns its become an issue. If you want more turning radius and your wheels clear you might try removing the steering stop plate on the lower control arms (spindle will hit the table instead) or adding some sort of steering stop and cutting the s10 spindle steering stops out completely. Not sure how much you could gain modifying that.

Hey and thanks for the reply. Also thanks for posting the pics and info in your project journal that gave me some confidence to try and mount my power steering on the passenger side as you have. I am anticipating interference problems with my lower radiator hose and my electric water pump. Not having a pulley on the water pump is creating an extra challenge to this process.

As far as the steering stops go, I have AJE lower control arms now so they don't have any steering stops on them. I have them adjusted to give me a lot of positive caster so hopefully this will correct any tire rub problems I am encountering at full lock.

[cjbiagi]

All H body idler arms are the same, manual and power steering. The pitman arms are different but I believe it may be the spline count or size, not the length or drop. The idler arm and pitman arm must be at the same height and length because they have to swing in the same arc as each other. That is why I was never a fan of bending them as they used to do back in the day. The odds of getting them bent evenly and maintaining the correct angle are pretty slim.

[day2vega]

Seams to me the oilpan is the culprit and always is
in contact with the center link. Is there any way
to shave some material or fab the oilpan enough to
get more clearance? Or will this take to much out
of the pan? sure would be nice if there was a pan
that would actually fit up right to clear the center link.

[avewhtboy]

Seams to me the oilpan is the culprit and always is
in contact with the center link. Is there any way
to shave some material or fab the oilpan enough to
get more clearance? Or will this take to much out
of the pan? sure would be nice if there was a pan
that would actually fit up right to clear the center link.

Yes the problem is with clearance with the oil pan, the odd thing is there were no clearance issues before the swap from manual to power steering.

I may hack my pan up if need be.

[kgroombr]

You all bring up good reasons why I am happy that I stayed original.

Ken

[Monza Harry]

Seams to me the oilpan is the culprit and always is
in contact with the center link. Is there any way
to shave some material or fab the oilpan enough to
get more clearance? Or will this take to much out
of the pan? sure would be nice if there was a pan
that would actually fit up right to clear the center link.

The Monza pan is shallow to start with and shaving it will cause problems if you have a bigger stroke than a 350, many sites with aftermarket ones fashioned after the Monza pan list in their notes not for 400 cranks [including 383 conversions] some here have tried with mixed results (2 were successful and one had issues[?]) IIRC. Sagging motor mounts cause all kinds of issues with our cars especially OEM Monza ones, mine did, oil pan/ground collisions and transmission linkage/ground [snow usually in the winter when mine was still newish] interference. Harry

[cjbiagi]

The problem is not with the steering components, it's more about engine position. I am not sure what happened with your problem before and after the power steering swap, but if the engine is in the correct factory position and you have a V8 Monza oil pan there should be adequate clearance between the pan and centerlink. The mounts may sag a little ( I have had no problem with them although I did install NOS ones back in the 90's) and another thing that can occur is if the frame sags it ends up lowering the mounts and bringing the engine down with it. Frame sag has been mentioned before and I am sure there is a way to measure it, correcting it may be a bit tougher at home. When doing a engine swap there may be some variability in the way the mounts are installed or just differences car to car. I think the best way to get clearance is to raise the engine up. You do need to be careful not to raise it too much because these cars also do not have a lot of hood clearance so you could end up with another issue. Maintaining the correct engine angle determined by the trans mount can also have a effect on the whole package.....including phasing between the engine and the rearend. So make sure you take into account the trans cross member and mount to be sure they are correct. These V8 cars did not have a problem when they were built with centerlink interference so we need to figure out what changed over the years. Some cars are factory V8's so you know you have the correct parts to start with, cars that have been converted to V8's may have more issues because of what was done to them through the years, sometimes by many different owners.

[avewhtboy]

The problem is not with the steering components, it's more about engine position. I am not sure what happened with your problem before and after the power steering swap, but if the engine is in the correct factory position and you have a V8 Monza oil pan there should be adequate clearance between the pan and centerlink. The mounts may sag a little ( I have had no problem with them although I did install NOS ones back in the 90's) and another thing that can occur is if the frame sags it ends up lowering the mounts and bringing the engine down with it. Frame sag has been mentioned before and I am sure there is a way to measure it, correcting it may be a bit tougher at home. When doing a engine swap there may be some variability in the way the mounts are installed or just differences car to car. I think the best way to get clearance is to raise the engine up. You do need to be careful not to raise it too much because these cars also do not have a lot of hood clearance so you could end up with another issue. Maintaining the correct engine angle determined by the trans mount can also have a effect on the whole package.....including phasing between the engine and the rearend. So make sure you take into account the trans cross member and mount to be sure they are correct. These V8 cars did not have a problem when they were built with centerlink interference so we need to figure out what changed over the years. Some cars are factory V8's so you know you have the correct parts to start with, cars that have been converted to V8's may have more issues because of what was done to them through the years, sometimes by many different owners.

I am pretty sure my car has a "stock" oil pan rather than a "V8 Monza" oil pan. I have the front motor mounts from hooker/trans dapt or home made not sure but it's the front motor mount welded to the frame on the driver side and bolted on passenger side so I don't see any sag issues either but for sure my centerlink with the manual box was lower by at least a half inch. Nothing changed but unbolting the old and bolting in the new.

My car has a huge cowl hood so moving the motor up qtr to half inch is no problem, same with my trans mission if need be and I have adjustable links on the rear to get the pinion angle sorted. As long as the steering shaft works I think it will be ok to lift the motor enough to clear the center link.

[cjbiagi]

Ok, well a stock sbc pan is much more likely to give you a problem, there is a reason they made a specific pan for V8 Monza's and it does provide the additional clearance for the centerlink. There are also aftermarket V8 Monza pans. Just curious, does your centerlink look level or does it appear angled from one side to the other? I am not sure if the holes in the chassis were the same for manual and power boxes, maybe that has something to do with it?

[avewhtboy]

Ok, well a stock sbc pan is much more likely to give you a problem, there is a reason they made a specific pan for V8 Monza's and it does provide the additional clearance for the centerlink. There are also aftermarket V8 Monza pans. Just curious, does your centerlink look level or does it appear angled from one side to the other? I am not sure if the holes in the chassis were the same for manual and power boxes, maybe that has something to do with it?

The center link is level, everything fit fine but my wheels are toed out from having so much caster now. I think a couple blows with a BFH to the oil pan may
be enough to get some additional clearance.

A couple pictures.

Oil pan clearance with additional spacers on engine mounts, about 1/2 inch.



The Vega manual steering linkage I took off the car