Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

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Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:49 pm

I just recently joined the site and have a '79 Pontiac Sunbird with 4-cylinder and automatic. Actually, it's my sister's car, a family heirloom with 56K miles. It came without power steering or power brakes, and I need to add both so the car can be modified to be driven with hand controls.

I can get a power brake booster with master cylinder from NAPA. Will this bolt in to the firewall without any mods? Is the check valve built into the booster or is it separate? Also, do I need a vacuum tank?

The steering box looks to be the same size and have the same mounting bolt pattern as a GM 605 power steering box but I haven't compared the two side-by-side. Some of the other questions I have are does the pump have it's own reservoir or is it separate, and is the pump driven by it's own belt or the belt that drives the water pump and alternator? I'm sure I'll need other parts like a different steering linkage and a hydraulic cylinder.

I've done this swap on a Fox-body Ford but never on a GM H-body, so I'm on unfamiliar ground here. If someone else has done a similar swap I'll take any advice you have to offer, and if you've got a shop manual that you can scan and e-mail the appropriate pages and pictures of the steering and brakes, that would be great!
Last edited by irock49 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby dadhad1 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:30 pm

Hey Newbie,

Welcome to the forum.

The booster should bolt right up. Be sure to use the OTHER linkage mount on the pedal then the one your using now.
Most boosters come with the check valve. You need one, so if it doesn't have one, just add it.

Sorry can't answer the P/S pump questions. Someone on the forum will know.
Lot of good guys with a lot of good knowledge here.

Good luck.

Mike
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:33 pm

Mike:

Thanks for your input. I'll order the booster next week and hope for a break in the weather and/or a friend with a somewhat warm garage.

I see you're from Bedford - small world, while I now live in Connecticut I grew up in west Manchester and went to West High and UNH. My father bought the Sunbird new from Grappone Pontiac in Concord.

My personal toy collection is a '72 Mustang fastback (again, my father bought that car new from Genest Ford in Manchester) and a '79 Ford Futura coupe. I gave the Futura a heart transplant with a 4.6L four-cam, 32-valve Cobra engine.
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby dadhad1 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:47 pm

Ha, yes a small world indeed. Even smaller H-Body World!

There's actually a few guys here on the forum from NE.

I went to Central High (Class '92) and UNH Durham as well ('96).

Good to see you've kept the classics in the family.

Take Care,
Mike
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'What is it? A Maverick? No. A Pinto? No. Looks like a mini Camaro. A Camaro? No. A Chevette? HAHA, No. It's a Vega. Ahhhhh, cool man.'

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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:23 pm

I'm making progress gathering parts. I scored a power brake booster from a salvage yard in Pelham, NH, and it will go to NAPA for a rebuild and a new master cylinder. I can get a rebuilt Saginaw 700 power steering box and pulleys from Borgeson in Torrington, CT, a power steering pump from Rock Auto, and hoses and belts at NAPA. A buddy at work has a sideline business doing metal fabrication, and has a big hydraulic press for forming brackets and a CNC plasma cutter to make the slotted holes. All I need now is warmer - much warmer - weather. The Sunbird is in my driveway under 6 inches of snow (down from a foot a week ago) with more snow coming on Thursday. C'mon spring!
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby kgroombr » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:02 pm

For the power brakes, you will have to relocated where the rod mounts to the brake pedal. I am sure the Monza is the same as the Vega. There are two holes, and the power brake hole is actually a different size too, so moving the pin won't work. The pins are pressed in, but I bet a bolt of the same size will work.

Ken
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby dadhad1 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:36 pm

On my pedal (a 75) it has a stud for the manual and a hole just below for the power (I assumed).
When I converted to power brakes I used the lower hole with a grade 8 bolt/locking nut (7/16" thread if I remember right).
Fit nice and tight in the pedal hole.

Not sure if that's the same as the Monza.

Mike
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'What is it? A Maverick? No. A Pinto? No. Looks like a mini Camaro. A Camaro? No. A Chevette? HAHA, No. It's a Vega. Ahhhhh, cool man.'

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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:27 pm

I've been gathering parts and getting deeper into this project. The car never had power steering and I'm looking for a picture or a sketch of the pump mounting bracket. The pump has 4 holes tapped 3/8-16 on the face, and the holes are at different heights from the face. The two hole bosses away from the engine are about 5/16" higher than the two near the engine. The block, an Iron Duke 4 (151 cubic inch), has two tapped holes, one near the oil pan and the other near the head. I'm assuming here that the pump bracket mounts on the lower hole and pivots on the bolt in that hole, and the adjustment to tension the belt is made with a slotted bracket between the pump and the upper hole in the block.

I'll try the local Chevy dealer to see if the pump bracket is still available - I doubt it - but if it's not, I have to go with Plan B which is to fabricate something. If anybody has pictures, that will help. Also need to know if the pump is driven with one belt or two. My source for the pump pulley lists only 2-groove pulleys. The crankshaft pulley has 2 grooves and the new water pump pulley also has two, unlike the original without power steering.

I bought a power brake booster (out for rebuild right now) and a new master cylinder separately. I didn't see any sort of a plunger in the brake booster that operates the piston in the master cylinder. Again I'm assuming that the plunger, whatever it looks like, is common to many GM cars and should be available. But if it isn't, I need pictures or a sketch to work from so I can fabricate a plunger.
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby chevyart » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:36 pm

hey newbie. you are getting into no-mans land buying all those parts from different places and attempting to do it yourself. you should get the ENTIRE steering and brake setup from one of the members who parts out these parts. one wrong part and you are in trouble. Gizmon(a member here) lives in conn. and he probably has everything you need, or ask someone else. good luck. art
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby dadhad1 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:53 pm

That 'plunger' is a bullet nosed stud coming out of the front of the booster. The one you got may have broken off. They should be able to replace it when its r&rd. Careful if cardone is doing it. I have had issues with them in the past but there's not a lot of others in the game.
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'What is it? A Maverick? No. A Pinto? No. Looks like a mini Camaro. A Camaro? No. A Chevette? HAHA, No. It's a Vega. Ahhhhh, cool man.'

My Vega Photo Gallery at World of Wheels in Boston 2014
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/115 ... pAWBWhqw1V
YouTube Video Playlist of My V8 Vega Resto Mod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1EZdPJ ... ELLLJsPs6C
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:27 pm

PROGRESS! Got the power brake booster back from NAPA tonight and it's got the plunger in it. It had been there all along but somehow I thought I needed another part to link the master cylinder to the booster. I put the two together - perfect fit.

I also got a lead on the power steering pump bracket from an unexpected source. Knowing the 151 cubic inch "Iron Duke" was used on some third-generation Camaros (why?), I put a question on ThirdGen.org and got a response telling me the Iron Duke was also used on CJ-5 and CJ-7 Jeeps between 1977 and 1986. The local Jeep dealer can't get the parts any more but gave me an exploded diagram with part numbers. My neighbor across the street, who is into Jeeps, sent me a link to a Craigs List ad from someone near Fitchburg, MA who deals in used Jeep parts. I called him and he has what I need. I'm beginning to believe that there is a God who watches over drunks, fools, and second lieutenants, and having been all three at one time or another in my life, I have triple coverage.

The only other problem remaining is adapting a Honda Accord gearshift knob to the Pontiac shift lever. My sister who owns the car has neuropathy in her hands and feet - the reason for adding power steering and brakes so the car can be fitted with hand controls - and, unable to use her thumbs, she can't operate the release button on the top of the Sunbird gearshift knob. The Accord she's been training on has the release button on the front of the knob and she can operate that by squeezing the knob with her four fingers
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:45 pm

Halfway there! Got the power brakes and master cylinder installed. A big thanks to Mike ("dadhad1") and Ken ("kgroombr") who told me to use the lower hole on the brake pedal arm to connect it to the booster input rod. Everything worked great. The only problem I had was mounting the master cylinder to the booster because I thought the studs were 3/8-16. They're METRIC! A trip to the hardware store and I got a couple of 10mm x 1.25 nuts so I'm back in business. Still waiting for the brake lines being sent from western New York to Connecticut. I ordered them a week ago tomorrow. Maybe they took a wrong turn on the Burma Road.

I'm taking a week off next week, weather permitting, and will start installing the power steering. Got a rebuilt steering box from Borgeson, it's all cast iron and weighs like an anvil. I still haven't found the power steering pump bracket but have Plan B prepared to fabricate one, and expect the local Chevy dealer will have the water pump and power steering pump pulleys.
Last edited by irock49 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Sat May 17, 2014 2:50 pm

Got the power brakes working. There's more pedal travel than I'd like but other than that, they work great and I've already locked up all 4 wheels unintentionally.

I wasn't able to get the GM double groove pulley for the water pump. Tried everything - Chevy dealer, parts stores, aftermarket, eBay - finally a sales rep at Summit Racing suggested using a Ford pulley they have, made by Spectre Performance, part number 4494. It's 5.875 inch diameter instead of the 5.75 inch Pontiac pulley, so the pump speed will be reduced to 46/47 of the original speed, or a loss of 2.13%. Not a problem. The Ford bolt pattern has 4 bolts on a 1.75 inch circle while the Pontiac has a 2.125 inch circle. The Ford pulley also has a deeper snout, the distance from the contact surface against the water pump flange to the V-belt grooves. I need to drill four holes in the Ford pulley on a 2.125 inch circle and make an adaptor .625 inches thick to bolt to the water pump flange, aligning the pulley grooves with those in the crankshaft pulley. I also have to machine .625 inches off the spacer between the pulley and fan to keep the fan from hitting the radiator. I don't own but have access to a lathe, a milling machine, a CNC plasma cutter, and a hydraulic forming press. It also helps to be a mechanical engineer in real life.

When done this car will be a Pontiac with a Jeep power steering pump bracket, a Honda gearshift knob, and a Ford water pump pulley. Is it a Jeendafortiac or a Pondeepord?
Last edited by irock49 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:48 pm

Got all the problems solved, just need to pick up a few more pieces of hardware to complete the job. Sorry, no pictures. The file size of the pictures exceeds the limit.

First, I got a water pump pulley for a '65-'66 Mustang with a 289. The pulley is 5.875" instead of the Pontiac's 5.75" diameter, so the water pump will turn a little slower by about 2%. The Ford pulley has 4 bolts on a 1.75" circle and the Pontiac has its 4 bolts on a 2.125" circle. I drilled new holes in the Ford pulley on a 2.125" circle. Then the Ford pulley is deeper, so I designed and made (or had made) a spacer 5/8" thick that bolts to the water pump flange and also cut down the fan spacer by 5/8" to maintain the same distance to the radiator. The pulley grooves align perfectly with the pulley grooves on the crankshaft.

Since the Iron Duke engine was used in some Jeeps in the early '80's, I was able to get from the local Jeep dealer an exploded drawing showing the power steering pump brackets. With the drawing and a lot of measurements on the engine, I designed my own brackets. A co-worker who has a part-time metal fabricating business and a CNC plasma cutter made the brackets for me. The brackets fit and I'm shimming the power steering pump mounting bolts with washers to bring the belt into alignment.

I got a rebuilt Saginaw 700 power steering gear from Borgeson in Torrington, CT. The mounting bolt locations are the same as the manual gear but that's where the resemblance ends. The output shaft spline on the power steering gear is larger so I had to get a different Pitman arm, and input shaft spline is also larger. It's good for me that Borgeson is just up the road. I'll take a vacation day this week and head up there to get a U-joint to match the input shaft spline and a length of 3/4" "Double D" shaft. With that, I'm ready to put everything together - next weekend for sure!
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Re: Newbie needs help with P/S, P/B conversion

Postby irock49 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:49 pm

Another job well done, or another job......well.....DONE! Got the power brakes and the power steering installed and operating. The only things left to do, beside the Honda gearshift knob, are putting a cotter pin in the castellated nut holding the steering linkage to the Pitman arm, and putting back two stamped steel panels under the car. (I've spent enough time over the last few days lying on the garage floor so the pin and panels can wait until after I get home from work tomorrow.)

The swap has been a big improvement. The car steers easily at low speed and I can turn the steering wheel with one finger. The brakes took a little getting used to but they work fine without a lot of pedal force. Next, the car goes to the specialty shop to have the hand controls installed so the owner - my sister - can drive again.

Just want to say thanks to everyone who pitched in with suggestions and offered advice when I needed it. I couldn't have done this swap without your help.
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