Rack and Pinion conversion. Pros and Cons.

[cacmanjr]

Carl will those (Brunton quickeners) help with the "Ackerman", (also an issue with the swap) with the S10 spindles? Can you post a link for them Please? Harry

Call up Brunton Auto, (386)-445-9962. Glen (owners brother) will probably answer the phone. I have no idea if they will help with the ackerman issue or not. Sorry!

[cjbiagi]

That's the problem with messing with the steering, it's a lot more complicated than it looks and it is more than just getting everything connected and getting the wheels to turn. Bump steer, akerman angles are all things built into the front end geometry. So when you start modifying things you have to be aware of all the consequences.
I chose to just upgrade the stock steering by having Lee manufacturing rebuild the stock gear and modifying it to 12.7 :1 ratio and install high effort valving. It eliminated the play in the steering and quickened the steering ratio so I am very happy with it. Not trying to discourage anyone from converting to rack and pinion but you have to understand what you are doing, especially since there are no kits specifically designed for our cars.
I am actually installing a power rack and pinion into a friends 55 Chevy, this is a kit designed for the car and considering we are upgrading from stock standard manual steering and also upgrading to power discs from the old manual drums so we are expecting quite a improvement. I am not sure about the overall weight savings, the steering rack is still pretty heavy. I am sure it is less that all of the stock parts so maybe for a race car it's important, saving 20 or 30lbs on a street car isn't going to make much difference.

[Fastmax32168]

All I have seen so far in this thread are "Cons". I have yet to see anyone say anything that would convince me all of this work and trouble would be worth it.
Roy

[ROB]

Saving weight
More header choices
Simplify serpentine belt set up
Those sound pretty good to me. Keep in mind, I haven't done the S-10 conversion yet. So choosing the rack route is an easier choice for me, compared to someone who has already invested time and money into an S-10 conversion. I still am decided, as the S-10 route would be much simpler.

Rob

[cjbiagi]

It's not my intention to deter you from doing it, I love the way new cars steer and feel. It's just a matter of getting it right so it doesn't "steer funny" as has been mentioned. With other cars that have had rack and pinion kits designed for them I am hoping that some engineering and testing actually went into them so that they not only fit correctly but maintain a normal steering response. To the best of my knowledge no such kit has been designed for an H body, so you are on your own for figuring it all out. Additional header choices? There are already long tube and shorties that fit and most of the time it's the chassis that the headers interfere with. Weight savings? Ok, there may be some (I'd be curious as to the actual difference) but is it worth all of the effort? I don't know, maybe it is, I never drove a H body with rack and pinion steering. I will admit it is a much simpler system but certainly you will need some fabrication skills to mount it. If you do go for it it would be nice if you documented it very well in case some others may want to do it. Funny, the one I am putting in my friends 55 Chevy actually uses a rack for a 80's Chevy Celebrity. It did come with a custom mount to fit between the frame rails of the 55. Another thing the kit came with was much shorter steering arms that bolt to the spindle. They are not one piece like later cars, including H bodies are. So, you are pretty much stuck with using the arms that are part of the spindle. Not sure how that will affect the overall steering ratio.
The S10 conversion more for getting bigger brakes and 5 lug rotors, so if you wanted that you would still have to do that conversion whether you go with a Rack and pinion or not. So I don't see where it's a "either or" choice. It's really two different things, or am I missing something?

[ROB]

Yes you did miss something. I mentioned that since I have to change my spindles anyway, I could use Mustang II spindles. Along with using a F-Body rotor, this will give me an 11" brake set up, and the Chevy 4.75" 5 lug bolt pattern. And since the Mustang II uses a 5" long steering arm, and the T-Bird also uses a 5" arm, its a match to have the proper rack with the proper length arm. And the rack is 2.5 turns lock-to-lock. Nice set up eh. The biggest concern would be proper placement of the rack in the car, and how much to narrow it to help achieve zero bumpsteer. Also, you aught to know how heavy a gear box is, that has to be close to a 50lbs weight savings with taking out the gear box, idler arm, pitman arm, and drag link. And as far as other header choices, I was actually looking to have a shorty style like the Sanderson CC13's, but with bigger primary tubes than 1.5". So yeah, there are pros and cons to this. Just gotta really figure out if its worth it all. And as far as there not being a kit for our cars to do this, well, this just may an answer, who knows.

[cjbiagi]

Ok, that makes sense. So GM F body rotors fit on a Mustang II spindle? I know the Mustang stuff is used on a lot of cars and has a lot of aftermarket support which is nice. Do the GM brake rotors and calipers match up ok with this swap? Also, what about ball joints, how do those match up? You also have to be concerned with spindle height, the distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounts as well as spindle axle location compared to a H body. Just things to consider.......

[spencerforhire]

Actually Rob, I think you may have missed something I mentioned(twice); I seriously doubt if there is any way to use the Pinto/Mustang II spindle with the H-body control arms. You would have to measure both spindles to be sure, but swapping spindles between different manufacturers is rarely possible. If there are minor geometry/alignment issues when using an S-10 spindle, imagine how hard it would be to get it right with something from a Ford.
My drag car has a tube chassis with fabricated suspension mounts and all aftermarket Pinto STYLE control arms in order to use the Pinto spindle.
I wish it were that easy.

[ROB]

Well Spencer, I actually haven't got that far yet. Now that I have found a spindle/rack combination, the next step is tomake sure the spindle will work. Arms don't matter, but their piviot points do. Same with the spindles king pin angle and height. I will have to carefully caculate this out. And it may or may not be better than the S-10 setup. After all, it's not perfect either or people wouldn't have to move in the lower ball joint to correct the massive negative camber. To be continued......

[79440bird]

I re fab my control arms for 69 camaro ball joint so I can use 69 camaro spindles then u can bolt on a A body 67 gto steering arm which is longer than the s-10 arms. Plus im using a chevy chevette manual rack. Have not finished this rack an cross member mount yet But looks very promising to work. I believe I'm using 94 firebird outer tie rods thread works with the inner tie rod on the chevette rack an the taper works with the 67 a - body steering arms.

[ROB]

Are you building a drag car or a street car. If drag, no big deal, but for the street you need shorter arms for the rack.

Current progress for me: I've got Mustang ii spindles, and a T-Birb Fox body rack. 2.5 lock-to-lock, and compatible with GM pumps. So far I'm glad I talked myself into the rack idea, because I also bought a 95 LT1 motor. In order to keep the A/C on this motor I have to notch the frame rail right where the idler arm sets. So, no idler, no regular steering. Rack and pinion it is.

Rob

[79440bird]

I'm sorry miss information. The 67 gto A arms are shorter than a S-10 by a half inch plus if you want you can have a shop make any style arm you want to put the outer tie rod where you want it. My car is Street strip car with 15x7 or 15x6 rims. It's been awhile since I looked at this project but. I believe the manual chevette rack I have is 3-1/4 lock to lock. Doug

[erik monza]

Rack and pinion is very simple, very precise, very light and nice looking, but it is not the only way to precise steering

I have a 1971 Opel GT with rack and pinion and it steers as a go-kart, one of the most control able cars I ever had, I also have a 1971 Renault 16 with rack and pinion and it steers as a 1973 Impala.

Rack and pinion is only ( I think ) a little part of a cars handling, the problem with handling, is the feel and the control, when you need it the most, at that critical point, you need to know how the car react on the input you give it.

I will just tell about these 2 instances.

1. It is winter, In the passing lane I am closing in on a BMW in the inside lane, he hit black ice and starts to slide, there is no shoulder on the road, as the BMW has abs brakes, he just hit the brakes, bad move - he cannot stop the wheels from rotating, sending the car into the guardrail, the car bounces backwards across the 2 lanes into the centre guardrail, now facing me in the passing lane, the reason I do not hit him strait on is simple, I know the feel of my car, I have played on icy roads for fun, I know how this car reacts, and I steered around him, no damaged.

2. it is summer, I am driving my Opel GT on a narrow paved back road at night, yes in the dark, on a road I do not know, bad Idea, al of a sudden this curve comes up and it is tight, but the GT handles perfect, you just turn the wheel some more - and then some more - and then some more - al of a sudden the back start sliding and then the front, the ditch is coming close, if I hit it sideways this car is going to roll, so I steer into it, I am lucky the ditch is not deb, I made it into the field, no damaged.

In Denmark, if you buy a high power car, a lot of guys will buy time at a track as well, to learn how to handle the car, at high speed, in slippery conditions, and so on, as there is no point, in having a high power car, if you cannot control it, this is not something you learn in the middle of a evasive maneuver.

The point is, if you know the fell of your car, you will have to retrain that, if you change the steering.

The point is, if you know the fell of your car, that is a lot more important, than a conversion to a more " precise" steering.

Just my opinion after 40 years of driving.

[Diesel Dan]

All I have seen so far in this thread are "Cons". I have yet to see anyone say anything that would convince me all of this work and trouble would be worth it.
Roy

Is the rack and pinion the only option once your draglink wears out?
I've found new tie rods and idler arms but no listings yet for the draglink.
Is somebody still making it?

[cosvega76]

Dan,

They show up on eBay once in a while, or you can send it to Rare Parts to be rebuilt. Price it first, though.


Chuck