Front wheel too far back

[76wagon]

I have one front wheel about an inch too far back, this is after an alignment so I know the caster is good. I'm thinking the cam bolts should take care of the lower but I'm not sure about the upper so I'm looking for opinions.

Original plan was to cut/ weld/ modify the upper control arm to move the ball joint location to where it should be. Shouldn't be too hard plus I keep my new urethane bushings.

Another option I thought of was to change the position of the mounting holes for the control arm. Not my favourite because I'd be modifying the actual car instead of an easily replaceable part.

Third option was the eccentric bushings. If I installed them in opposite directions I would get the right effect but maybe not the right amount of shift. Plus I have all new urethane bushings everywhere so they wouldn't really match the rest.

I'm leaning towards moodifying the control arm since it's probably the problem anyway. Figured I'd get some opinions before I start cutting up suspension parts. Thanks in advence for any input.

Phill

[NVEGAR8D]

Hi Phill,
Were there eccentric washers on top locations that maybe went back in the wrong way ?
nick75vega

[76wagon]

Nothing eccentric now, all new urethane bushings everywhere. I think the control arm got bent or something.



Phill

[cjbiagi]

Adjusting the alignment will move the wheel front to rear depending upon how it is adjusted. That is a result of moving the control arm cams which of course move the control arm. When I adjusted my alignment I went from the tire rubbing the rear fender liner to rubbing the front fender, it moves that much. So, it could just be the result of the alignment. So, not sure if you have something bent, a frame sag condition, or something else going on. Is the tire rubbing or are you just trying to resolve a visual problem?

[76wagon]

Tire is rubbing the fender and frame rail when I turn one way. I'm thinking that wheel must have hit something pretty hard at one time because the caster is the same side to side according to the guy who did the alignment (he's a friend of mine and would lie about that- really anal when it comes to cars). So if I start messing with the cam bolts it will throw that out, especially if I adjust it till the wheel is in the right place.

Before I start cutting anything I'll measure between the upper ball joint and somewhere else on both sides of the car, that will tell me how far it needs to move. If they're the same I'll just move it with the cam bolts and see how it drives. I guess worst case scenario the tire wears out early and I have to replace the free front tires with some that match the rears.


Phill

[cjbiagi]

If you think something is bent then you can get a frame chart with the measurements. Someone may have them here or they are often in the service manual if you have one. They give reference points to measure and may be helpful identifying the issue.

[76wagon]

That's a good idea. I'm kinda scared what I might find out though

Would have been a good idea while it was still on the rotisserie....

Phill

[NVEGAR8D]

Hi Phill,
If you go to v8monza.com you might find some info that may help in your measurements. It was compiled by Bob Gumm . I have printed info on Fisher body service manuals.
nick75vega

[HAULIN' IT]

Phill, A couple things I'm going to add just to give you more to think about There are certain things you learn from years of repairing damaged vehicles & diagnosing what is where that concern me about your description, plan, ect.
If the caster is correct now & you move the upper ball joint forward...you will be removing the positive caster that you are to have, need & want. What I'm getting at here is that these cars don't have all that much caster to start with so you need to look at the lower adjusting cams to see that they aren't already maxed for forward...front BOLT, all the way in (not cam) & the back BOLT all the way out. The second problem is trying to keep the camber in check while doing this.

Having only a bent upper control arm is unlikely...having only a lower or both is MUCH more common. Now we don't know that both weren't bent at some point & only the lower was changed & now your addressing the problem, possible? Having one bent control arm & having proper wheel alignment is very unlikely...both bent & achieving a proper alignment would actually be MORE likely than just one.

My advice would be to look at the printout from the alignment (post it up so we can help)...it will help you to see what is where & then compare to the cam bolts to see what could be changed.
Doing much accurate measuring to the upper control arm is real tough without some rather advanced equipment.

Getting a measurement from a hole or known fixed bolt in the lower body forward to the center of the lower balljoint on each side will start to help...then go from the same item to the opposite side balljoint. This will start to tell you where the bottom is...it could be a combination of back & over that is your problem.

I realize you said the tire is rubbing so you indeed have a problem somewhere. The inch you mentioned...where did you measure to/from to come up with this? Wheelbase is important, however it brings the rear suspension into the game & may bring along other flaws that lead to improper thinking. I would suggest you measure to a known good point on the body shell (front of the rocker or bottom, front edge of the quarter panel forward) to the center of the greasecap. Of course this only works if you have a solid, unrusted, patched, wrecked & repaired shell to measure from...if any of the above, now this can lead to bum measurements also. I'd like to hear some of these answers before you start cutting a suspension component. Good Luck & Keep us posted! Hope this helps in some way, Lorne

[76wagon]

Lorne, thanks for the advice. Here's some answers to your questions

The inch is between the tire and fender. Not really an accurate inch, just approximate eyeball measurement. Don't worry, if I move the upper I'll be moving the lower too. From what I remember the cam bolts were pretty close to center on that side so hopefully I still have enough adjustment in them to compensate for any changes in the upper. The car will for sure be going in for another alignment if I have to mess with anything.

When I tore everything apart it had pretty new rubber bushings with some eccentric bushings in there somewhere. Maybe the last guy had them installed in that control arm to move the upper balljoint forward?

My plan goes like you're suggesting, taking as many measurements between the balljoints and somewhere on the body as I can before I start messing with anything.

As for the printout from the alignment, not sure if they'd still have that on file but I'll ask him. It was aligned last summer...

If I don't enjoy myself too much tonight I'll pull the panels off the front end and take some measurements tomorrow (work today) and get back to you.

Phill

[76wagon]

Got the fenders and wheels off today, turns out the upper ball joint on the passenger side is 1/2" further back than the driver's side. Did some math and if I shorten the front half of the control arm and lengthen the rear half by 1/4" that will put the ball joint in the right place. Hopefully the lower has enough adjustment to align it properly, otherwise I'll be doing the same to the lower control arm too.


Phill

[76wagon]

Got the control arm all welded up and everything back together. With some side to side measuring I got the lower control arm adjusted pretty close. Looks like I'll have just enough adjustment to get it in the right place well I take it in for an alignment. (hopefully, or I'll be doing the same to the lower control arm- boo)

I haven't gotten the car out for a test toast yet but the wheel looks like it'll clear where it was rubbing. It'll be nice to have a turning radius again.

Thanks everyone for your input,
Phill