Different front spindles

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Different front spindles

Postby erik monza » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:36 am

What do you think

To get bigger and newer brakes, I was thinking other spindles, yes and a lot is using S10 - 5 bolt conversion .

But with the amount of medium cars , that are using a double wishbone suspension up front, there most be other front spindles with even bigger brakes that can be fitted, like Mercedes SL or others, or is it possible to lathe of the disk itself and fit a bigger brake disk on top of the hub and hold it in with the wheel like on new cars, but then I have to somehow fit the calibre, and yes I have some room as I run 15 ins`nascar wheels

Anybody seen a newer spindle with separate brake disk that could look the part??

Thanks from Erik
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in 77 I had a 1974 Vega GT w auto - from 77 till 79 a1975 Monza 2+2 262 w 4 speed - from 80 till 85 a 1978 Monza Spyder 305 w auto - from 2010 on a1976 Monza 2+2 262 w auto change to 305TPI w 4speed auto (my 4th H body)
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Monza Harry » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:38 pm

Erik, "RidkRacer" is a member of this board and he used to be quite active here. Here is a post to his swap for "Giant @$$ Brakes". The "Beware" is about the size of the post this was a bigger concern before most of us had High Speed Internet. I am considering rear brake part of this on my car and probably the "Aerospace" set-up for the front Harry http://www.v8s10.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17842 and the Aerospace brakes. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41854
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Smiley » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:07 am

The 99-03 2WD S-10 Xtreme's came with larger brakes and dual piston front calipers but they also had 16" wheels so they may not fit in your 15" wheels.
The early 82-92 S10's had the single piston front disc brakes that fit in 14" wheels but are larger than H-body brakes.
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby T-FATTY » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:14 am

I have the spindle set up from a 2000 extreme blazer on my car and have 14" wheels on it.
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Kenova » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:39 pm

Use a '69 Camaro spindle with custom made steering arms and the only thing limiting the size of your brakes will be the size of your wheels. For any given brake size there are probably a dozen different options.

Ken
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby MonzaRacer » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:06 pm

Camaro spindles mess the geometry all up.
Later ZQ8 Extreme spindles with adapters allow either C4 mixed parts or c5 c6 parts. Stock stuff fits under 14" wheels, Corvette style wheels are needed to clear bigger brakes.
Why would
Danyone want to put crap European car parts on our cars when GM parts swap so easy.
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby jon72vega » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:20 pm

MonzaRacer wrote:Camaro spindles mess the geometry all up.
Later ZQ8 Extreme spindles with adapters allow either C4 mixed parts or c5 c6 parts. Stock stuff fits under 14" wheels, Corvette style wheels are needed to clear bigger brakes.
Why would
Danyone want to put crap European car parts on our cars when GM parts swap so easy.


MonzaRacer
Did you look to see where the original poster is from?
I'm sure that European car parts are alot easier for him to source than GM parts.
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Kenova » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:33 pm

MonzaRacer wrote:Camaro spindles mess the geometry all up.


The early F-body spindle probably doesn't "mess the geometry all up" any more than the
A/G/S10 spindle. The F-body spindle uprights are damn near the same height as the
H-body spindle. The H-body spindle is 1/4" to 1/2" taller than the F-body and when you
include the extra length of the F-body ball joints the F-body assembly is maybe 1/4"
taller. This may move your roll centre a little lower, but it certainly doesn't mess up the
geometry.
Then there is the increased turning radius with the S10 spindle that very few
mention (it's even worse when you use the A/G body spindle). With the F-body spindle
the early A-body steering arm (which is bolted on like the F-body) will get you close to
the H-body turning radius and steering geometry but you also have the option of
fabricating an arm to match the length of the H-body steering arm. What option is
there for the S10 steering arm?

Ken
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby avewhtboy » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:33 am

http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_steering.htm

OK the above link has all the information about the first generation "Camaro" spindles that have bolt on steering arms.

OK after perusing that link and checking the measurements for these spindles a few things occurred to me about what needs to be
done to correct the steering geometry. Ackerman, steering radius and camber curve. The first two items are made worse when
swapping to the S10 spindle due to the longer steering arm. And these spindles don't help the camber curve at all.

The F/G/X/A spindle would correct all of the problems though a custom steering arm may have to be designed.
It's possible that the best solution would be the Ridetech spindle.

Image


Image


Image
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Kenova » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:29 pm

Keep in mind that when you increases camber gain with taller spindles you
also lower your roll centre which you don't want too low.
Here is a good video about ackerman angles and how they work at speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ONv5MrpFg

I have thrown my Vega into a few corners and have always been impressed with how
composed it is right up to the limits of the tires (puny little 13"ers). I think that I
would be hard pressed to make the suspension work any better. I can't wait to get some
bigger tires on it.

Ken
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby avewhtboy » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:56 pm

Kenova wrote:Keep in mind that when you increases camber gain with taller spindles you
also lower your roll centre which you don't want too low.
Here is a good video about ackerman angles and how they work at speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ONv5MrpFg

I have thrown my Vega into a few corners and have always been impressed with how
composed it is right up to the limits of the tires (puny little 13"ers). I think that I
would hard pressed to make the suspension work any better. I can't wait to get some
bigger tires on it.

Ken


Some ackerman is required but from my research indicates the H-body has way too much which may make the car
feel better than it is according to that video. I am sure the roll center is way to high as well. But really I am just
wanting to have a better turning radius, my car sucks with the H-body spindles so putting longer steering arms
or even the same length doesn't really appeal to me. For a little car it doesn't turn like one.

Also, the upper control arm is not level at ride height, I think though if the car was lowered maybe the Ridetech
spindle may not be necessary or an extended upper ball joint could be used to correct this.

I have an extra set of stock deep spring pocket lower and upper control arms that I would like to fit with ball joints
for the these spindles to convert my car from 4 lug to 5.

Ideally it would be nice if Justin would begin making control arms again I would like to have a set about 2 1/2 inches longer
than stock with these ball joints
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby monzaaddict » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:18 pm

Kenova wrote:
MonzaRacer wrote:Camaro spindles mess the geometry all up.


The early F-body spindle probably doesn't "mess the geometry all up" any more than the
A/G/S10 spindle. The F-body spindle uprights are damn near the same height as the
H-body spindle. The H-body spindle is 1/4" to 1/2" taller than the F-body and when you
include the extra length of the F-body ball joints the F-body assembly is maybe 1/4"
taller. This may move your roll centre a little lower, but it certainly doesn't mess up the
geometry.
Then there is the increased turning radius with the S10 spindle that very few
mention (it's even worse when you use the A/G body spindle). With the F-body spindle
the early A-body steering arm (which is bolted on like the F-body) will get you close to
the H-body turning radius and steering geometry but you also have the option of
fabricating an arm to match the length of the H-body steering arm. What option is
there for the S10 steering arm?

Ken


I am in agreement that the early afx spindle is a better option that the s10/78-87 a/g body spindle. The early afx spindle is almost the same height as the stock h body spindle when measured from ball joint pivot centers. the height from the lower ball joint pivot center to the spindle center is the same as the stock h body spindle. The king pin inclination angle is the same as the h body spindle. The early a body steering arms are front steer like the h body.

the stock h body lower control arm can be modified with Ball Joint Sleeve U-B MACHINE 40-3307 (I.D.2.010 O.D.2.38 CHEVELLE) and the upper control arm ball joint modification is the same as when converting to the s10 ball joint. i plan on moving the lower ball joint sleeve as far forward as possible (which is not much) and using the offset upper control arm bushings installed with the front bushing pushing the control arm out and the rear bushing pulling the control arm in to gain some positive caster. Clyde says he was able to get 2.5 degrees positive caster using this trick. Depending upon how this work or doesn't work, I may modify the upper control arms or try a set of adjustable upper control arms.

Howe and proforged offer tall ball joints and tie rod ends. The 69 camaro outer tie rod end is 1/8" shorter in horizontal length and should work.

The stock early afx disc brakes push the wheel out compared to the stock h body brakes. I found this kit from cpp (classic performance parts). I mocked these up and the distance from the ball joint axis to the hub surface is within 1/8" of the stock h body brakes. The kit uses the s10 metric calipers which have the same piston diameter as the 76-80 monza, so the stock master cylinder can be retained.
https://www.classicperform.com/Instruct ... 7WBK-S.pdf
https://www.stevesnovasite.com/threads/ ... -67.46189/
https://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cppfdb/disc.htm
https://www.bracketracer.com/nova/cppfdb/cppfdb.htm
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Kenova » Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:48 pm

Here is what I have done, although it isn't on the car yet.
I sourced most of it from Howe Racing. Some of the part numbers may have changed by now.

223400
This is a heavy duty weld in bushing for screw in upper Chrysler ball joints. As you can see in the picture it has a nice big ring for welding. I had my welder cranked and there was no thread distortion or burn-through. It ain't comin' out.

22329X
These are extreme duty ball joint housings with Chrysler upper ball joint threads and screw into the bushing mentioned above. I don't have measurements but the Howe Chrysler ball joint assembly appears to smaller in diameter than the S10 ball joint.

22480
These studs are for Howe Racing early GM (Chevelle, Camaro) lower ball joints. Most of Howe's ball joint studs have the same size ball so they fit the XD housing. Quite nicely I might ad.
These are standard length studs. A person could play with different stud lengths (available in + or - .100" increments) to adjust bump steer and camber curves. I'm hoping I won't need to.

22399V
Dust boots. Because, you know, grease in, dirt out.

IMG_1058.jpg


IMG_1089.jpg


For the upper ball joints I just bought the AC Delco upper ball joints for a '71 Nova. In the process of fitting them to the control arms they were moved rearward slightly.

To make the hole for the lower ball joint sleeve I used the hole for the old ball joint grease fitting as a centre and used the appropriate sized hole saw. The stud and ball were busted out of the housings first. Because of the shape of the lower control arm I wasn't able to bolt it down in the drill press so I had to break out my 40 year old cast aluminum Black and Decker 1/2" drill. Not recommended for the limp wristed.

The spindles and steering arms are reproduction Chevelle pieces from Right Stuff. The spindles are standard height with a two inch drop. I chose the drop spindles because I plan on running a 25" tall tire verses the 23" donuts on there now and the drop will help keep the nose down. The a-body steering arms have a substantial steering stop built in so I'll probably eliminate the stock steering stop tab. I had the upper and lower control arms and spindles assembled on my bench and everything fit up nicely. As best as I could measure, everything is very similar in size to the parts that are currently on my Vega.

IMG_1088.jpg


Here is a photo of the stock suspension. Notice that the outer tie rod end is pretty close to the same height as the lower ball joint. I think the A-body steering arm will put the tie rod end in the same spot. If it needs adjustment I don't think it will be much.

IMG_1092.jpg


This may not be as easy as a S10 swap, and it certainly wasn't less expensive :shock: , but if the need arises I have some adjust-ability with the joint stud length and I hopefully dodge some of the short comings of the S10 swap (which nobody seems to talk about). Then there are the brake options. Sooooo many options. :bang:

Ken
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby Smiley » Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:45 am

SPEEDWAY HAS S10 spindles that take bolt on steering arms.
Blazer spindles take the dual piston calipers and can be upgraded to Corvette brakes with bolt on parts.
the steering stops on the H-body lower control arms should be removed when converting to S10 or Blazer spindles to preserve the turning radius.
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Re: Different front spindles

Postby monzaaddict » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:58 am

In this video, he mentions at (6:45 mark) swapping upper control arms and getting 5 degrees positive caster. He also moved the upper ball joints back further and ended up with 7 degrees positive caster. He said he had to go to shorter tires to prevent the tires from hitting backs of wheel wells. Swapping the upper control arms puts the upper Ball joint mounting plate at a poor angle. You can see the ball joint is binding at the 15:30 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJop_rix5e4&t=1026s


This video shows his final alignment numbers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bFnv44HACI
Last edited by monzaaddict on Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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