E85 Carb MN

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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Monzsta » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:35 pm

spyder_xlch wrote:I'm puzzled about the dual fuel engines. Like Tom said E85 can handle more compression. You'd probably would get better mileage if the compression ratio was higher. The engine has to run richer on E85. How does the computer compensate for this? Do you flip a switch when you run E85 to make it run richer? And what about the compression ratio? You can't change that with a flip of the switch. Or does varriable valve timing help bump the compression up? I don't think you could make the engine run at it's best in a dual fuel situation. I'd think you'd have to pick what fuel you want to run and build accordingly (like Nic is doing).

Chevy and Ford use a fuel sensor, Dodge looks at the fuel map. I had the pleasant experience of diagnosing a car that had been filled with E85 and was not designed for it. Long story short, the adaptive memory went to +33%, and put the light on for "adaptive numerator at limit". Had it been one of our flex fuel vehicles, the pcm would simply have triggered an alternate fuel and spark strategy at the onset of +30% adaptives and carried on, business as usual. Lambada is the same, it just takes 9.5:1 fuel to reach the o2 sensor's switching point instead of 14.7 for gasoline, which is coincidentally around 33% more fuel.
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby spyder_xlch » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:13 pm

Ah-ha, a fuel sensor. The computer can change the fuel and spark based on what fuel it senses. Now if it could change the compression ratio it may even run better on E85. Maybe run a higher compression ratio for the E85 but have a computer controlled compression release for when running on gasoline. When the piston is at the bottom of the compression stroke the comp release would open but then shut sometime while the piston is coming up but before the injector shoots fuel in.
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Monzsta » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:51 pm

spyder_xlch wrote:Ah-ha, a fuel sensor. The computer can change the fuel and spark based on what fuel it senses. Now if it could change the compression ratio it may even run better on E85. Maybe run a higher compression ratio for the E85 but have a computer controlled compression release for when running on gasoline. When the piston is at the bottom of the compression stroke the comp release would open but then shut sometime while the piston is coming up but before the injector shoots fuel in.


Maybe with Variable Valve timing more duration could be cranked in to lessen static compression.
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby spyder_xlch » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:01 pm

I don't even know why I'm talking about this. I don't plan on running a dual fuel vehicle and if I ever do own one I doubt I'd even care to modify it to run better on E85. :think:
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Sirshredalot » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:33 pm

I wonder how one would convert a holley 600dp to E85 AND blow through?

I wonder if youd need the super sized needle and seats or if a .120 set would flow enough?....

There is only one gas station around here that has E85 but Im very interested in using it once I get a blow through set up on one of my tunnel rams.

Just imagine....650 horsepower, blow through, tunnel rammed, on pump gas for cheap?....Boing.

God bless
-Shred
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby NixVegaGT » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:22 am

I wonder if that place up here sells just the metering blocks… Here's a site I've used when considering E85.

http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/carbtech.htm

Here's one on converting to a blow through. I haven't read this one so I'm not sure about it yet. Let me know if it is good:

http://www.hangar18fabrication.com/blowthru.html
- Nic '73 Vega GT "DogBoxx" Batwing LS1
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Sirshredalot » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:52 pm

The way they explain the conversion is very straight forward and simple....if that is all that it takes it should be illegal for Holley to charge an extra $400 for a blow through carb, when all it takes is some know how and about an hour.

Im keenly interested in the E85 conversions. Id really like to start from scratch and take it step by step to test out what ACTUALLY needs to be done...I just need to find a pair of 600 Double pumpers.

After the E85 conversion I will be converting my carbs to blow through in preparation for my Vortech V-3 Si-Trim(dreaming) Supercharger....drooolll.....(looses train of thought.....Huh?)

God bless
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby NixVegaGT » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:06 pm

asshole
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Sirshredalot » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:57 pm

Dito...

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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby NixVegaGT » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:48 pm

I sent off my specs to the E85 guy today. Here's the info I sent him. We'll see what he comes up with:
************************************************************************************************************************

Rob,

Thanks for a great business! Hopefully things are going well.

I'm getting to the point where I need to order a carb for my E85 project. Here's my specs:

Buick/Rover Aluminum 5.0l (300ci) stroker:

CR: ≈11.5:1 (still need to cc the heads)
Bore: 3.74
Stroke: 3.4

Rod ratio: 1.68:1

Redline: 6500ish

Cam specs (Erson custom grid, Solid lifter):

LCA: 108º
Overlap: 74º
Timing: 35/71/75/39

Clearance Hot: 0.023

Lift: .544/.544

Adv Duration: 286/294


Specs @ 0.050:

Overlap: 38
Timing: 17/53/21/57

Duration: 250/253

I have both a single plane and a dual plane manifold for the setup. I'm not sure which one I should go with in the end. The single plane is a high rise Harcourt from Australia. The dual plane is Edelbrock medium rise. The cam should make power at higher RPM. The car should weigh about 2300 lbs. when it's finished.

I've fabricated headers for the engine: Four into one, 1 5/8" primaries, 32" long into 2 1/2" collectors. Those will run to an X-pipe and exit just ahead of the rear tires. The exhaust pipes will probably endup around 4'-5' long including mufflers.

The heads flow pretty well. Here's some flow numbers I suspect I'm getting with a mildly ported head with larger than stock valves:

'64 Buick 300 aluminum head CFM:

Int: Ex:

1.720" 1.5"

0.100 60 40
0.150 90 80
0.200 115 99
0.250 130 108
0.300 150 118
0.350 163 122
0.400 166 128
0.450 168 150
0.500 170 130
0.550 173 131
0.600 175 131

These numbers are based on a conservative compromise of actual numbers taken from a fully ported race 300 head and a stock head with stock 1.625" intake and 1.312" exhaust. I've increased the valve size and had the transitions smoothed out in the pockets. These engines seem to really like a crazy tight LCA with the overlap at 75º and still run pretty smooth, relatively speaking, down low. That said, I still want to drive the car around. I've been waffling on carb choice. I don't mind warming a car up by modulating throttle when it is cold so I figured the 650 race carb would be what I'm looking for but I am willing to leave the final choice to you. You are the expert here.

Thanks in advance for your help. Let me know what you think.

Nic Wiederhold, '73 Vega GT.
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Sirshredalot » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:23 pm

Hey Nick,

Did the carb guy ever get back to you about this one? IM really interested in what he says about that combo.

I love carbs...

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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby NixVegaGT » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:40 pm

Oh yeah! I did contact him. He's going to set me up with a "Race 650". It's a ProForm base with billet metering blocks. Here's a pic:

Image

(from website)

The E85carbs Race Series Carb includes:
• PROFORM Carburetor Main Body
• High-Flow Main Body!
• Dyno-Proven Horsepower & Torque Gain!
• Adjustable, Screw-In Air Bleeds!
• High-Performance Down-Leg Boosters!
• Maximum Air Flow. No Air Horn, Choke Tower, or Choke Control!
• High-Rate Air-Flow Section Design!
• PROFORM Billet Throttle Base Plates With
Adjustable Secondary Air Flow Cam Bracket!
• Solid Billet Construction!
• Timed & Full Vacuum Tubes for Accessories & Tuning!
• Welded Throttle Shaft!
• Button Torx Head Throttle Plate Screws!
• Slip Link Mechanical Secondary Linkage!
• Billet Metering Blocks
• Solid Billet Construction!
• Durable, No Warping or Porosity Problems!
• Changeable Idle Feed Restriction!

He was telling me that the jetting should work for my setup. We'll see.

Thanks Shred.
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby Sirshredalot » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:03 pm

Holy crap dude....I want one....er...two....I guess I need two.
Id just hate to know what it set you back in the wallet region.

Thats boner-iffic. Looks like a sweet carb and I bet youll be happy with it...thats a pretty nice list of hardware that youve got in that thing, so get your screwdrivers sharpened...youve got ALOT to fiddle with.
Good thing those guys get em pretty close from the get go.

With the price of gas going down...the price of E85 with be dirt cheap.

God bless
-Shred
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby NixVegaGT » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:15 pm

Yeah dude. It's not cheap: $675. Cheap for an E85 carb thou. All set up and everything too. He said he'd help me with the tuning. I've got $2.06 down the block for reg. E85 is around $1.80 now. LOL!
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Re: E85 Carb MN

Postby NixVegaGT » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:27 pm

OK I've got my carb picked out now I found the place I'm going to tune at! Peep this page about E85 work they've done in the past couple years. Good news for E85 use:

http://www.hitechmotorsport.com/index.p ... &Itemid=42
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