aftermarket fuel system

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aftermarket fuel system

Postby rtm » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:51 pm

I purchased a fuel cell for the trunk of my coupe,
figured I'd use the space where stock tank was for exhaust (mufflers) purposes.
in a classic look before you leap scenerio, (I didn't) :bang: I'm finding aftermarket fuel pump / regulators to be very expensive.
I was looking @ aeromotive products to support my 500 hp. sbc.
I want to run a bypass regulator, rather a than deadhead system.
now looking @ barry grant pump /aeromotive bypass reg.
anyone have a suggestion as to an inexpensive RELIABLE system?
thanx in advance 4 any help
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby chevy art » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:47 pm

hey rick. you rerally dont need a bypass system for your fuel system. when you get into the real high pressure, high price pumps that pump a million gallons per minute then you need the bypass regulator and a returnline. believe it or not, the companies recommend a # 8 feed line from pump to front regulator and a # 10 return. sounds backwards, but thats what the experts recommend. a bypass system for a good fuel pump to feed your car would loose performance with a bypass. if you must have the high end stuff i will call you. i have a barry grant setup that will knock your socks off, and i will tell you what i have been using in my 67 nova for the last 15 years, and it is a small block with about 525 hp and comes through the traps at 7800 rpms and never misses a beat. talk to you soon art
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby rtm » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:08 pm

hey art,
I was basing my fuel system requirements on this article I found
http://www.centuryperformance.com/fueli ... g-140.html
defines the need for a bypass regulator
let me know what you think
here is the part that piqued my interest:
Regulators and the Benefits of Return-Style Systems:

One of the biggest restrictions in most modern fuel systems is the "dead-head' regulator. Dead-head regulators are popular because you do not need to install a return line. However, they are not only more restrictive but also create several other problems that can be eliminated with a return-style regulator. Dead-head regulators also have a higher failure rate than return-style regulators.

Mallory, Weldon, and other fuel component manufacturers offer both dead-head and return-style regulators. You will base the regulator you use upon system demands and racing class requirements. Dead-head regulators regulate pressure by starting and stopping flow. Return regulators regulate pressure by sending excess fuel back to the tank in a continuous cycle. If you are confused about your regulator choice, think of this simple analogy of a dead-head regulator's operation:
Do you remember as a child, running around the house chasing a sibling or a friend? What happened when you chased them to a room and as they tried to close you out and they did not quite get the door closed? They are pushing, you are pushing, the door is only open a few inches, and then the person on the other side of the door lets go and moves out of the way. Remember stumbling across the floor trying to catch your balance and not destroy furniture or land on your face? A dead-head regulator is similarly doing the same thing, with the fuel being the object pushing, and the regulator holding the door and then periodically jumping out of the way.
Because a dead-head regulator starts and stops flow, fuel pressure between the pump at regulator is higher than the pressure between the regulator and the carb. This is different on injected applications, where the regulator is positioned after the fuel rail so that the injectors see maximum pressure and flow. However, if the pressure gets too high, it can and will damage the fuel pump. Therefore, the pressure coming out of the pump is limited in many pump designs by a device built into the pump called a bypass. Low pressure pumps are limited to less than 9 PSI and should not be used with dead-head regulators. High pressure pumps are limited to a pressure of between 10 and 25 PSI.

Not only can the fuel pumps being used with dead head regulators fail because of pressure issues, but pumps with dead head regulators also run hotter do not last as long as when connected to to a return-style system because it is the fuel that cools the pump. Pounding the fuel because it can not move creates more heat. Fuels pumps working against a dead head regulator will also be louder during operation.

The Mallory 70 and 110 pumps are low pressure pumps that can be used without a regulator for the street or with a dead head regulator for racing. Mallory 140 and 250 series pumps are high pressure and high volume, and must be used with a regulator (dead-head or return-style).

It is possible for the bypass in the pump can malfunction. This can cause the pressure to drop or increase so much that the pump motor fails. Even if the bypass in the pump is working correctly, it is still possible to have a pressure drop with a dead-head regulator, including use with a large pump. See the image below:



Let's say that at idle, gauge #1 will read 10 PSI and gauge #2 will read 8 PSI. At full throttle, the increase in fuel flow will create a pressure drop between the pump and the regulator. The amount of pressure drop depends on the restriction in the fuel line ... a 4 PSI drop is not uncommon. Gauge #1 will now read 6 PSI and because a dead-head regulator cannot raise the pressure, gauge #2 will also now read at 6 PSI. The result is a 2 PSI pressure drop at the carburetor or Nitrous solenoids even though a very large pump may be in use.
NOTE: When using a dead-head regulator, a second gauge should be installed just before the regulator. This will allow you to check that the pressure before the regulator stays higher than the set pressure.
Many race pumps have the bypass set very high (14-25 PSI) to avoid this problem. However, this creates another problem. The higher bypass pressure makes the pump work harder and draw more amperage. In fact, the pump works just as hard at idle as it does at full throttle down the track! This is one of the main causes of early pump failure. To counteract this problem of high amperage draw, some companies manufacture voltage reducers for street cars to slow the pump down and increase the life of the pump. The problem here is that reducing the voltage also has a negative affect on the pump motor.
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby chevy art » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:01 pm

hey rickif you feel more comfortable usin the bypass regulator, then yiou should use it. for what you are doing i would say just use the good mallory pump and deadhead regulator and you will get all the gas you will need without problems( my opinion) if you wire the pump with proper relay and use # 8 line from rear to front and use good fittings(freeflowing), and a good nonrestrictive filter, you should be fine. . i always push my fuel through the filter(filter after the pump). i use 2 holley blue pumps on my nova(525 horses) and come through the traps at 7800 rpms and never want for gas. have a guage right in the car and always have about 7 1/2 lbs pressure(at traps) and the volume must be ok as the car is always pulling. i run each pump off separate solenoids and switches. one is always on in pits and when i stage then i turn on number two. sometimes i forget and that baby still runs the exact same. 15 years and never hurt a pump and never missed a beat, and this is all with a regular holley deadhead regulator, no return line. system works well . car runs like a clock, 10.95 -11.00 depending on the track. car will go faster, but i dont need to kill it with higher stall speed takeoffs. i tune with the shoepolish when conditions change instead of changing all kinds of stuff to go a little faster due to bad conditions art
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby rtm » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:05 pm

thanx 4 your input art.
having no real experience w/ aftermarket systems, I tend to be persuaded by what I read elsewhere.
realtime experience like yours goes a long way in helping me decide what to buy.
I don't want to spend $1200 on parts I don't need. if anyone has used equipment that will support my + or - 500 h.p., I would gladly buy it @ a reasonable price.
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
rtm
 
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby chevy art » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:16 pm

rick i will be in touch art
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby Sirshredalot » Thu May 13, 2010 11:02 am

Just my .02

Go with the bypass...i am currently re-planning my fuel system because I have had so many problems with dead head regulators. My pump puts out 15psi. and with my regulators set at 6psi, it constantly pushes fuel out of the gaskets and seals in the regulators....these are brand new quick fuels....I even switched over to some old holleys and I got the same thing.
Plus they creep pressure at idle and lose pressure on the top.

A single high flow regulator with bypass is probably about $125-150, and a Holley blue or black fuel pump is also about the same price.
What gets expensive is the plumbing.
My suggestion to save cash would be to plumb had aluminum lines.

A 25ft roll of -8an hard tube is about $26, and it acts as a heats sink...so no vapor lock...russell and aeroquip sell the fittings for it...they are reasonable.

God bless
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby chevy art » Thu May 13, 2010 7:23 pm

been running two holley blue pumps(wired on relays separately, with separate toggle switches ) and run 71/2 lbs pressure regulated by a single holley regulator(nothign fancy), just the right one for that application(maybe about $25) and run a race prepped holley 750(i do all my own carbs). it really flows about 760 on a flow bench at my engine builders. i use russel # 8 line out ou the cell into the two pumps, and then through the big gas filter(thats right i push through it after the fuel pumps, which is the right way on a race car or probably any car.. i come through the traps with 7 1/2 lbs of pressure and for sure the volume is ok. my car comes through the traps at 7800 rpms and never misses a beat and always runs between 10.95 and 11.00, depending on the track i am at. I have NO FUEL RETURN LINE AND WILL NEVER NEED ONE(running 15 years with this setup in the hot and the cold. hey shred if you are having those problems i would say to change your regulator. that is the key to your problem. that is the final control for the fuel hitting your needle and seats in the carb. art
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby rtm » Thu May 13, 2010 8:31 pm

hope i'm not starting an argument here.
but if I am, I might learn something from it :twisted: :lol:
just trying to build a RELIABLE street/strip fuel sys.
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby Bob Gumm » Thu May 13, 2010 9:23 pm

Go with a Mallory 3-port return style regulator $89.95 from Summit Racing.

I'm using a Summit Racing fuel cell (SUM-290220-S), two -8 braided stainless lines to a Mallory canister style fuel filter (MAA-3140), -10 aluminum hard line to a Summit electric fuel pump (looks like a Barry Grant copy) then -10 aluminum hard line to Mallory 3-port return style regulator (MAA-4309) set at 15 psi with return line going back to tank and a -12 braided stainless line to a Barry Grant 4-port regulator set to 7.5 psi feeding -8 aluminum hard lines to the carbs. The -12 is only because the BG regulator has a huge -12 inlet fitting and I couldn't find a reducer. So far over $1000 in the fuel system (the cost of AN fittings add up) and no delivery problems.
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby chevy art » Fri May 14, 2010 12:24 am

not trying to start a fuel supply contest, just feel pretty strongly about what works and what could be overkill.. when i built my car in the early 90s i looked under the hoods of every car that ran decent at all the tracks and always asked a million why this setup type of questions and came up with a pretty efficient, reliable fuel delivery system.i definitely used all the good russell lines and fittings and was always careful how and where i routed the lines.i used the # 8 from the fuel cell up to the regulator and out of each side of the regulator i ran # 6 lines to each side of the carb.i feel that bigger than that is unnecessary as the volume of the gas has already made it to the regulator and from there to the carb is a short run and gets there quickly with 7 1/2 lbs pressure in the # 6 lines. bob used much bigger line and may well need that higher pressure setup and return line setup because he runs a supercharger. i know nothing about those babies, and their needs for fuel are a whole other ballgame.as for the carb setup i feel that unless you are running a very high horsepower engine(600 hp and above) and need alot of gallons per hour to feed that baby by way of a very high pressure fuel pump , which requires the bypass setup and return line, then a real good basic setup is more than adequate to get the job done. it works for me and alot of my superstock friends that run real fast and simple. i say simple meaning the fuel systems. the superstock engines are very complicated and expensive, but easy to feed gas to. i guess that i could say i am the voice of experience only because my car performs well all the time with a very simple fuel system. its nice looking and very effective. dam russell lines and fittings cost enough to make a grown man cry art
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby Bob Gumm » Fri May 14, 2010 1:25 am

Agreed, the only reason my system is so complicated is one hiccup on a supercharged engine from a lean mixture and you'll be picking up the pieces for days. Oh, and I miss-identified my carb hard lines, they're -6, not -8. Keeping it simple is by far the best way to go and will likely be much more reliable.
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby Sirshredalot » Fri May 14, 2010 6:37 am

Well...I dont like to over complicate things, but I like things to be functional.

TO OUR ORIGINAL POSTING MEMBER:
For a street strip set up, you will probably never "need" a bypass with 500hp...but:

There are benefits to them. As anything compresses or pressurizes, it heats up...(feel the side of a large air compressor tank after it shuts off).
Fuel will do the same thing in a fuel line or a regulator.
The less heat...the better. So obviously the less you can compress/pressurize the fuel system, obviously the less heat youll have...and we all know that means more HP.

A naturally aspirated engine on gasoline will not need more than 10psi on the top end. So running a pump at 15psi (holley black) means that youre dead heading at least 5 psi of pressure or more in the lines all the time and working your fuel pump that much harder as well.

If the fuel pump does not have to work against its self, then it runs cooler too and therefore lasts longer. Also, with a good quality regulator like a mallory 3 or 5 port return style, you get a reference line...which will increase fuel pressure as vacuum is lowered...according to engine load and demand.
If the fuel is given a place to bypass excess fuel being supplied back to the fuel tank, Its easier on the whole system. Thats why all the OEM's run them.

Bypasses are not necessary, but do serve a meaningful purpose.
Some people like to keep it as simple as possible, and i cant say that I blame them, but The old Holley blue fuel system in a box is antiquated. I still can serve a purpose and perform well, but just like the horse and plow, the same job can be done better with a little more innovation.

Sure you have to plumb an extra line back to the tank, but I think its worth it.

$.02
God bless
-Shred
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby chevy art » Fri May 14, 2010 10:46 am

i think i once read that the oem pumps push about 90 lbs of pressure towardsinjectorsand use about 45 lbs going in. that is a great requirement for a good regulator and by pass system. im not sure if that is correct, but saw those figures in an article somewhere in my readings. couldnt believe the pressure used to make those systems work art
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Re: aftermarket fuel system

Postby Sirshredalot » Fri May 14, 2010 1:19 pm

Actually its very true...most modern vehicles have a regulated line pressure of between 45-75psi and a pre-regulated pump shut off pressure of 100-165psi.

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