Turbo question (long)

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Turbo question (long)

Postby cozwurth » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:48 am

OK guys, I'm needing some help with a turbo application. I'm looking at duplicating a patent from Smokey Yunick where he used a turbo to help vaporize the gasoline to make the engine develop more horsepower and better fuel economy. To the tune of over 250 HP, 230 ft/lbs of torque and over 50 MPG in a 2.5L Fiero. He kept the RPM's down, too. About 4500 at max boost (15 psi). In one of his patents he made over 190HP and got 48 MPG (mixed driving) out of a 3000# Buick with a 3 cylinder engine. I have a Monza wagon with a 2.5 that would make an excelent test-bed for this. I've been reading a lot about turbos, but I'm not positive about what I need. I found a site that explains a lot about turbos and how to properly size one for your application. According to that site, and my calculations based on their equations, I would need a T3 "60" trim turbo, assuming that I'm reading the compressor map correctly. I've looked on Ebay, and most of what I see are T3/T4 hybrids. Does the T3 60 sound about right for a 2.5L engine running at relatively low RPM's? BTW, Smokey's Fiero engine was factory stock with the exception of the camshaft, which he changed for better exhaust scavenging. Any info on the turbo sizing question would be greatly appreciated.

Info: Smokey's Fiero was featured in the June 1984 Hot Rod magazine, and the patent number I'm researching is 4,862,859 dated September 5, 1989.
Dave
And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places. All these are the beginnings of sorrows. MATT 24:6-8
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Postby barebonesracecars » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:59 am

I'll be interested in following your lead here. I'm looking at an '88 Sunbird 2.0 Turbo for a potential daily driver.
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Postby monzaman69 » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:17 am

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Postby SWT Racing » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:27 am

A 60 trim T3 sounds about right. They are usually used on 2.0-2.2L engines, but for a low revving 2.5L, it should be fine. Just be careful about buying turbos on EBay. There is a lot of junk out there. Ask for close up pictures of the compressor inlet to make sure the inducer has not rubbed on the housing, and ask if the shaft has any endplay. Either one of these is a sure sign of a turbo in need of a rebuild. The T3/T4 hybrid is basically a T3 turbine mated to a larger T4 compressor. One of these would be ok if you were looking to make more power, but that doesn't sound like your plan.
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Postby cozwurth » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:02 am

Andrew,
Thanks for the info. I just bought a Saturn SL2, so this project is going on the back burner for a while. I thought long and hard about it and decided that I did not want to spend a bunch of time experimenting on a car that is meant to be a daily driver. I have two other project cars that are screaming for attention... my '70 SS396 Chevelle, and my '74 Vega Panel Express. My dad also has a '65 LeMans rag-top that we want to get started on.

The Smokey setup does sound like a fun alternative for the Panel, though. Vaporizing turbo 2.5 in the panel, with a set of repro Yenko decals.... 8) . Good thing I'm still in the pre-planning stages of that project, huh?
Dave
And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places. All these are the beginnings of sorrows. MATT 24:6-8
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Postby avitet » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:12 am

id be worried about the internals of the duke being upto that level of power for a very long
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turbos

Postby MonzaRacer » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:28 pm

source all your ideas from a 2.3 turbo Tbird, they ran TO4B for the most part, but pretty much any turbo in 2.0 to 3.0 liter engine, look up Hot Rods turbo Sprint and apply simple ideas to your project they got a 1 liter to run 14's in a sprint! you cna use a bevel seat and large ball bearing and a valve spring as a boost valve , I would look into a Megasquirt computer with 3 bar map and then your safe. Should be sweet if ou keep it simple.
Need any FI help pm me or email me at Xanadu4024@aol.com
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Postby cozwurth » Wed May 02, 2007 8:29 am

OK, I'm kinda getting back into this thing now. I've done a little looking on eBay for turbos and am pretty surprised at what I have found. I'm seeing a place advertising NEW turbos at around $200. That seems too good to be true...

Here's a link to one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4-TU ... dZViewItem

This one is not exactly what I'm looking for, but is a good example of what this person is selling. I'm doubting the quality of this item. I've always been told that if it seems too good to be true that it usually is. Can any of you turbo guys chime in with any feedback on this?

Thanks,
Dave
And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places. All these are the beginnings of sorrows. MATT 24:6-8
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Postby NixVegaGT » Wed May 02, 2007 9:41 am

In my opinion a T3T4 hybrid is a bit large for 2.5L. A lot of my drag racing Mopar 4 buddies used them though. They usually spool up later in the rpm range. I think if you could find a nice used K26 from an 80's vintage Audi 5000 or off a turbo ford... We got a K26 used for $80 including the wastegate for our $2008 challenge car. It's not perfect but it should last a few miles...

These turbos are likely some HongKong knockoffs. They might not have the proper metallurgy for longevity. If they are going to go bad it will be in the bearings. At $200 though you could gamble on it and even if you only get 30k mi. out of them it was only $200... Disposable...

If I remember right Smokey powered the spinning fuel heating tubes with the turbo shaft! I bet you could power them with an electric motor though. I was thinking if you heated the fuel with the oil instead of coolent you could get some parasitic cooling for the oil before it goes into the turbo. Just a thought. I suppose it might take longer to heat up though, huh... Did he put a preheater in the line for warmup?

I've always been intrigued by this idea. I bet big OIL killed the development of this project... Hmmmm... I wonder if you could vaporize fuel first under pressure and then use a gas injection system like from Propane injection.
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Postby heinz057 » Wed May 02, 2007 2:27 pm

try and find smokeys book "Best Damn Garage in Town" it has a hole chapter on it. there is one of these motors at the Smithsonian. pat. #4,503,833 March 12 1985
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Postby cozwurth » Wed May 02, 2007 8:18 pm

Nick,
I definitely don't want the T3/T4 hybrid. I was only posting a link to that auction as a sample. That person has many auctions running on these new turbos...all in the same basic price range. According to the calculations I ran I THINK I should be running a straight T3 with 60 trim. It's hard to find a straight T3 turbo. If I commit to going this route, I will be using my Monza wagon as a test bed. I definitely want a good quality turbo, not a cheap, low quality knock-off that will puke it's guts out in a matter of months. This thing will be constantly in a light boost environment, so I imagine life will be fairly tuff for any turbo. There is a local turbo re-builder that gave me an estimate in the 6-700 range for a re-built and blueprinted T3. I thought that was a little high, but I had never priced one before.

Where did the "spinning fuel heating tubes" come from? :?: Maybe a different patent number? The Smokey setup I'm looking at uses a heat exchanger below the carb to start vaporizing the fuel, then the heat from the turbo itself vaporizes a bit more, with the impeller acting a little like a blender chopping/mixing the fuel, then an exhaust wrapped intake manifold finishes heating/vaporizing it. Sounds too simple, but Smokey says that balance is the key. If one part is off, then the whole thing does not work.

Thanks for the info on the other turbos. I'll keep my eyes open forone from a T-bird turbo coupe or a SVO mustang.

I'd like to find a dead, non-rebuildable T3 that I can use for fabrication purposes.
Dave
And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places. All these are the beginnings of sorrows. MATT 24:6-8
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Postby Sirshredalot » Thu May 03, 2007 1:24 am

If youre not in any hurry to get parts, I have an old mitsubishi TE04 turbo that needs rebuilt if youre interested.

It turns fine but it has a little bit of noise to it...not like a grinding...just like its sat on the shelf for a few years and not ben turned. rebuild kits arent too pricey on ebay...all they are are a few bushings and snap rings.
The oil tubes are not with it but its got everything you need to bolt it to a manifold...including a BO valve...but it needs modded to fit....it was off of a different setup.

Its a great turbo for small motor, it will build boost very fast, but wont like high rpms(above 5k) on a motor larger than a 2 liter....I reckon youd be at full boost by 1800 rpm. I was going to use it to turbocharge my chevette but the vette got towed by the city...
So the turbo is just taking upspace.

But the problem with it all is that its in my dads shed and he lives about 200 miles away from me...so youd have to wait till I went down to visit my folks. Probably about a month.

Id gladly trade for some other cool speed parts...or just make me an offer...Im not too attached to it so I dont have those high dollar fond feelings.

I am looking for a rebuild kit for a Saginaw, a torque arm mount bracket (clamshell type), and a pair of small air cleaners that will fit a dual quad intake.

email me if interested:
Dudeyourmomsfat@sbcglobal.net (actually real email address)

God bless
-Shred
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Postby Tailssideup » Thu May 03, 2007 5:04 pm

You need to be a good fabricator for this project. I did some research into it and would really like to see someone else make it. You need to have a custom plenum (think like a Draw-through turbo set up style) to go to a heating chamber then it is fed into the turbo, the turbo and intake manifold must be completely sorrounded by the exhaust manifolds, in the manifold the heat from the exhaust causes the A/F mixture to expand. Then it is forced into the cylinders, it wont detonate because the fuel would be too mixed or something do to so. Your major problem is oil cooling. I beleive you are going to want to use fully synthetic 20W-50 and use a pretty large oil cooler. Also, the expansion chamber after the carb and before the turbine is supposed to be sorounded by a water jacket to heat it up.
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Postby cozwurth » Thu May 03, 2007 8:47 pm

Tailssideup wrote:You need to be a good fabricator for this project. I did some research into it and would really like to see someone else make it. You need to have a custom plenum (think like a Draw-through turbo set up style) to go to a heating chamber then it is fed into the turbo, the turbo and intake manifold must be completely sorrounded by the exhaust manifolds, in the manifold the heat from the exhaust causes the A/F mixture to expand. Then it is forced into the cylinders, it wont detonate because the fuel would be too mixed or something do to so. Your major problem is oil cooling. I beleive you are going to want to use fully synthetic 20W-50 and use a pretty large oil cooler. Also, the expansion chamber after the carb and before the turbine is supposed to be sorounded by a water jacket to heat it up.


I know...the intake is really the biggest thing that concerns me at this point. I have a friend who runs a auto repair a few miles away. I'll do all of the cutting/shaping and get it tacked up for him to weld. I'm pretty sure I'll have to build & weld the intake in stages so that everything can be welded up tight. It's gonna be heavy... The heat exchanger under the carb is gonna be a challenge, too. Once I get the Monza into the garage I can start taking a closer look at room in the engine compartment. The pictures I have seen of Smokey's setup appear to be fairly compact, so it should fit without too much problem. This will definitely be a long-term project. Lots of things to work out. One article stated that the system is simple, but it will not work if just one thing is out of balance.

I have a few ideas bouncing around in my head for all this stuff...I just have to get organized.
Dave
And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places. All these are the beginnings of sorrows. MATT 24:6-8
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Postby cozwurth » Thu May 03, 2007 8:53 pm

Wesley,
Thanks for the offer. I'll let you know more once I get back home this weekend from travel so I can get to the calculations I ran for the 2.5. I'll try to find a compressor map for your turbo and see if it will be close. If it will work we should be able to come to a deal on that turbo. I'm definitely not in a big hurry on this.

Dave

Sirshredalot wrote:If youre not in any hurry to get parts, I have an old mitsubishi TE04 turbo that needs rebuilt if youre interested.

It turns fine but it has a little bit of noise to it...not like a grinding...just like its sat on the shelf for a few years and not ben turned. rebuild kits arent too pricey on ebay...all they are are a few bushings and snap rings.
The oil tubes are not with it but its got everything you need to bolt it to a manifold...including a BO valve...but it needs modded to fit....it was off of a different setup.

Its a great turbo for small motor, it will build boost very fast, but wont like high rpms(above 5k) on a motor larger than a 2 liter....I reckon youd be at full boost by 1800 rpm. I was going to use it to turbocharge my chevette but the vette got towed by the city...
So the turbo is just taking upspace.

But the problem with it all is that its in my dads shed and he lives about 200 miles away from me...so youd have to wait till I went down to visit my folks. Probably about a month.

Id gladly trade for some other cool speed parts...or just make me an offer...Im not too attached to it so I dont have those high dollar fond feelings.

I am looking for a rebuild kit for a Saginaw, a torque arm mount bracket (clamshell type), and a pair of small air cleaners that will fit a dual quad intake.

email me if interested:
Dudeyourmomsfat@sbcglobal.net (actually real email address)

God bless
-Shred
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