VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:13 pm

I'll add this... I think this letter designation exists more for production line/Fisher body use. Each Division (CBOP) used a different Base letter for its particular bodystyle (07,27,77) to help identify it. In the Monza Line up, this told fisher body which front and rear support structures to weld on. (M vs.R)

I'd be interesting to see what if any frame assembly differences there were from an E sunbird to an M sunbird

I'd say its possible that since Fisher installed some of the interior trim, that if there was a big enough difference in installations, than the body got an additional letter within the division ie: 4T07 vs 4S07.

Buick guys....were the bumpers different or something? Maybe it was the installation of the Targa Band that made the difference? ('S' for Standard 'T' for Targa?)
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby res0o7eb » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:03 pm

My Skyhawk is a 4S07 and it has the Targa. I am not sure what RPO that is, though. Didn't it get farmed out to some company?
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby SunbirdMan » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:15 pm

fyrftr50 wrote:Also, the M doesn't necesarily refer to 'Sport', the Sunbird wagon isn't designated a sport wagon, yet it is an M designation which is why I didn't include it in the terminology.


But here you have posted on your site an ad from GM calling it the Sunbird Sport Safari. And the Fisher body Manual calls it a Sunbird Sport
Image


fyrftr50 wrote:I appreciate what your trying to say, but I'm trying to keep it as simplistic as humanly possible. Coupes and notches (which was primarily a 1st gen term) are the same, a trunk, whereas hatches are hatches, whether sport or not. I could get really technical and call them 2+2s since Chevy didn't use Sport Hatch till 77 or 78


Personally, I think its more confusing to those not familiar with the terms when they see GM referring to the "Monza Sport 2+2 Hatchback Coupe" and think that there is a contradiction. Besides, its just as easy to say or type "notchback" as it is to say or type "hatchback". See, no confusion.
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:38 pm

There all coupes...

It sounds like coupe would refer to the notchback, but really all the models are sporty versions of sedans, hence the term coupe. Except the wagons, which are, wagons.
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby fyrftr50 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:08 am

Both Chevy and Pontiac refer to the trunk cars as Coupes so that is why I don't use Notchback (that is a 1st Gen term anyways and, heck, I didn't know what a notch was when I first heard the terminology but I've always known, or refered to a coupe as a trunk model) in any of my terminology.

I'd forgotten about the 'Sport' Safari Wagon, but that wasn't a VIN designation, just an option on the base Wagon and the Literature I have on VIN numbers, production numbers, etc do not mention 'Sport' for Pontiac's wagon because it was just an option. There's GM screwing with our heads again, though, lol.

The S and T designation for Buick refers to the standard features on the Skyhawk. The T07 is a barebones base 'S' Skyhawk while the S07 Skyhawk is more optioned Skyhawk. Both could be ordered with pretty much whatever you wished, the the difference was in the base features.

Just like the D07 Starfire SX was a less optioned Starfire and the T07 was a fully equipped (or at least moreso) model.
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:54 am

Code Research:
Ok so that eliminates T standing for Targa.

Could you get the Targa Band on the 'T' ?

To re-explain, I'm pretty sure that the only reason for the letter designations, is that Fisher body had to make a change to the basic assembly. Since fisher installed the basic interior, the trim level differences could have necessitated the lettering differences.

Something about the differences was drastic enough that, at some point in the line..one letter went this way, and another letter went the other way, or got to skip a whole part of the line. ect.

I lean towards a difference in actuall frame construction.... but what would be different framewise from a buick T to S?
same with sunbird M/E and Olds S/D
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terminology:
I have heard chevrolet say 'Hatchback coupe' so I think thats where the confusion comes from.

And 'Coupe' is a general automotive term, used for a sport version of a Sedan (Wiki)..So in Essence, all Hbody Sedans are Coupes.

I like Notchback because...it helps people 'picture' what you mean...the Hatch has the smooth back hatchback look, while the trunk model takes that flow and makes it 'Notchy' . I'll take notchback better than 'trunk model'
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby SunbirdMan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:49 am

marco_1978_spyder wrote:Terminology:
I have heard chevrolet say 'Hatchback coupe' so I think thats where the confusion comes from.
'


All third generation camaros and firebirds are called coupes and the vast majority of them are hatchbacks( I'm not sure, but maybe only the convertibles aren't hatchbacks.)
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby fyrftr50 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:15 pm

Marco
As far as I know, there is absolutely no structural differences between a T and an S Skyhawk, or a D and T Starfire, or an E or M Sunbird. I'm at work so I can't give you info on the T Skyhawk that I have in some Lit, but I'll pull it out in the next few days. Essentially, from the top of my head, it was mere trim items, like basic seats and door panels, that type of stuff, but, yes, you could order a T07 'S' Skyhawk with a Targa Band, heck, Road Hawk package, anything you could on an S07 Skyhawk.

I'm just as confused by GMs terminology of models etc, in reference to hatches and coupes. I fail to understand why they would name one a hatchback coupe and the other a coupe, why not make it easy and stick with hatch and coupe, hell, why change from 2+2 hatchback coupe to sport hatchback coupe. Heck, I've seen 2+2 sport hatchback coupe, all referencing the Monza. It could drive you crazy if you let it, hence the reason I stuck with the most basic terminology that both Chevy and Pontiac used, for the most part.
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby SunbirdMan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:00 pm

fyrftr50 wrote:Marco

I'm just as confused by GMs terminology of models etc, in reference to hatches and coupes. I fail to understand why they would name one a hatchback coupe and the other a coupe, why not make it easy and stick with hatch and coupe, hell, why change from 2+2 hatchback coupe to sport hatchback coupe.


Exactly my point. There's the big "C" Coupe and the little "c" coupe. The big C is part of a model name but they are all coupes. GM could have just as easily and correctly called an 07 a "Town Coupe", thats their choice. They could have just as easily and correctly called a 27 a "2+2". But you can only correctly call a notchback a notchback, and a hatchback a hatchback. These are the terms used by Fisher body: an 07 is a hatchback coupe and a 27 is a notchback coupe. Throwing around the name coupe exclusively for the notchback is not correct and confuses things more in my opinion. Notchback and hatchback leaves no confusion.
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby fyrftr50 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:04 pm

If I make those changes, can I then include Station Wagon Coupe or Kammback Coupe? :P
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby SunbirdMan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:09 pm

fyrftr50 wrote:If I make those changes, can I then include Station Wagon Coupe or Kammback Coupe? :P


Station wagons are different category of h-body. You're just hell bent on driving me crazy, (not that far to go).
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby classic_cruiser » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:48 pm

marco_1978_spyder wrote:...Something about the differences was drastic enough that, at some point in the line..one letter went this way, and another letter went the other way, or got to skip a whole part of the line. ect.

I lean towards a difference in actual frame construction.... but what would be different framewise from a buick T to S?
same with sunbird M/E and Olds S/D...


With regards to the sunbird sport (M) and 'regular' sunbird notchback(E), I believe you are close here Marco. The sunbird sport notchback (M) for 1980 uses different tail lights than the sunbird notchback(E), they are different enough that the punch-out for the taillights in the sheetmetal is different. They physically look very similar, but the sport notchback uses the thin sheetmetal 'grille' over the taillamps, this grille trim screws into the body sheetmetal from the outside. The standard sunbird notchback has a thin chrome strip around the outer edge of the taillamp that is made as part of the taillamp, that's why sunbird sport notchback taillights are not interchangeable with standard notchback taillights, although you might be able to 'make' them fit. Also, I believe the sport notchback was the only model to have the 2" wide chrome strip running along the lower edge of the rocker panel (you can see it in the safari/sport pic above), this chrome strip required fasteners to be riveted to the rockers to attach it.

I'm not sure if there are other differences, these are the ones that created some issues when I went to rebuild my rear-ended sport notchback using a standard E notchback body.

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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:35 pm

Excelent addition Terry, thanks for the info..

I was going to mention the chrome strips.. but didnt know about the tailight change.. that would definately mean 2 different body variants.

Checking buildsheets, I found something...

I have Both 2'E'07 AND 2'M'07 model sheets.....BUT, I'm this instance, both used a 2 'M' 07 Body.

Also the M's are 1978 models and the E's are from 1980. So in this instance, the letters just changed for the year, but the body assy used stayed the same.

I have an M27 Pontiac buildsheet, but no E27 to compare it to, I like Terry's explanation though...different rear taillight sheetmetal assy.

Update* and I have here a 3DO7 vin that lists indeed a 3 'D' 07 as the model on the buildsheet.

And, I just remebered a what frame assembly shifted around alot...the battery tray!
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1980 Sunbird Hatchback 4cyl, 4spd.
2006 Chevrolet Aveo 5 speed Hatchback
Yes, you can refer to me as Mark
Please visit my blog... http://chevymonza.blogspot.com/ Follow if you like!
Featuring special guests; Carl Beraytor and Ray D'atore

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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby tinsfci » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:57 am

Hello,

I just noticed that Oldsmobile doesn´t have any engines listed at all...?

For example: VINs starting on "3D07C5....", or "3T07C6..."
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Re: VIN# DECODER (2nd Gen.)

Postby fyrftr50 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:08 pm

That would be because there were no Olds produced power plants in the H-Bodies
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