How do you know HOW rare your model is exactly?

[sirrick4]

I don't care how rare mine is or how much it might be worth. To me it's worth more than the last 5 Vettes I've owned. I got it because I've always wanted one and I love it. It's different to other American cars and there wouldn't be any more than a dozen here in Australia at the moment and I will never sell it or convert it to right hand drive

[stage169]

None of us would be here if we didn't really like these cars.

Rare to me is a desirable option or package with low production numbers.

Value wise we all know what we would pay but like Marco pointed out, mint, survivor, V8 package model H that opens up the market a bit.

Even at that though breaking 10k with an all stock H would be an event. Not saying it can't be done I've seen several cars here that fit the bill. A restored car can chew up 10k quick but just the word means a lot of different things.

Still doesn't come close to the muscle car market. Hard to say what the future will bring but I think I'm done buying though so they can go up!

Brian

[cjbiagi]

Yeah but the problem is if someone does have deep pockets looking for a older car, even one from the 70's, an H body is probably not going to be his/her choice. There are not a lot of pristine H bodies to start with (relatively speaking) very little aftermarket support, hardly any have sold for big money, and compared to other models they just aren't as desirable. I know that may sound funny coming from someone who has spent basically his whole life building, babying, investing a lot of money and showing a H body but I am just a realist. I like the car and I don't regret investing whatever I have put into it to bring it to the level it is. I do it for my own enjoyment and ego I suppose. I don't ever think I will get anywhere near what I have into it ( or should I say my survivors) but that's ok. It's been my life's passion to bring it to where it is and that's all that really matters to me. I like having something different and up to the same level as some other more desirable, or at least more popular cars. The other thing working against H bodies is their size. Let's face it, not everyone can comfortably fit into a small car and that comes into play as well. Maybe if Chevy didn't make Camaro's, Chevelle's, Nova's, Corvettes etc the Vega and Monza would have been more popular but going against all of those cars at the same time meant that for the most part H bodies were overlooked by the majority of people.

[Sunula66]

I guess to really answer your original question, by using the build sheet and the info it provides can determine the amount or number and even the lack of number of your model with the specific components as in factory parts whether numerous or not, eg. 200 models with this particular transmission or this many of a specific model had this power window option or all came with this color carpet...etc. to place a value becomes a mathematical quiz as well as a knowledge based best summation and with some comparison, if you can, with similar vehicles or not,( car is unique if there isn't much to compare it with ) always based on fact and availability. Don't forget that there are always other components like demand and how deep ones pockets are or even the desire factor, "I like the 63 vette" but can I afford it and would I be happier for a bit less money with a unique car such as this H-body"... all valid points, when it comes down to figuring out a value. "Rare" and "Value" are two different things , but it always seems apperant that one "enhances" the other.
As I understand how it works,I am going to stick my neck out here a bit. My own particular car was valued by a well known G.M. appraiser guy from my area. He established a value based on my original books and build sheet and went on further to earn his fee by researching through his means and I suppose his methods, to obtain history on the vehicle, that he would be willing to put his name on and if challenged to prove said value in a legal or "court" setting, especially if a claim was made say, for damages to be paid by an insurance company, he would have to defend his decision based on the facts and research that he did. He and I established some findings from this site as well as other literature that I provided as well, and his ability to pull from this and his own sources with G.M. archives, which is available to anyone if you know where to look for it. Supporting documentation from a compilation that he must put together and justify. After he goes through a gambit of reading and looks at all of the repair orders and parts and the condition of various components of the vehicles he checks out, he also has to protect his decision by investigating certain things, such as, common wear and tear and whether or not certain things as simple as, were the pedal rubbers or window trims replaced or original and is this or that a factory correct part or aftermarket or reproduction add on... I mean that these people, if they are any good at all,will know what to look for. He has to prove that its valuable or mediocurr at best. So for a hundred and twenty bucks, was my fee, I got an honest assessment from an unbiased car appraiser. I now know the rareness of my car and have a price in mind. It has taken a lot of research and I can establish as a lot of us now can at how many were made of certain models and whether they are rare or whatever, hey you do the math and utilize the sources on H-Body to help. There is a ton of info provided from codes and connections and where to find build sheets incl. the one link I provided as well in Canada.
Rare or not, I have and always will maintain that these vehicles are unique and are certainly desirable and probably affordable. In my case, I hold an appraised value of 20 to 25k doesn't mean I'd get that but who knows. I'm not looking to sell, merely establish it's worth. If you look at some of the builds here, there's a lot more money put into modified cars on this site than that but rare doesn't mean worthless either.
Hope this helps. It seems to be the age old question, and in the end, "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder"! cheers.

[stage169]

Sunulla66 Wow! So did George Z. give you the 1 of 358? I was just curious what option combo brought it down to that. Very interesting and I have to say that if a Pontiac collector had several F body muscle cars and thought yours would be a nice addition they would probably think 10k+ would be a good deal. That is a much smaller and different market than what you usually think about but those guys are out there.

I've posted this before but I still get a kick out of it. I would like to see some nice example H's make to an auction and see what they go for.

[Sunula66]

Well, according to the build sheet that I purchased from G.M. shortly after getting the car, the designated number, 1 of 358 referred to that many Formula's built with the W-66 designation. In that number as my appraiser pointed out to make what he called a "very well optioned vehicle", out of all of these Formula's built, only 499 others came with the M-20 transmission as an option. Mine has this as well, but there are some regular Formula cars also had an M-20.( no-one really knows out of 500 cars how many W-66 had M-20's and how many other Sunbirds had M-20's) In another referance, my car came with the ordered posi-rear and what really caught his eye was that even though this was to be a limited model, the guy ordering the build so to speak, also requested the "sun-roof".He obviously knew what he wanted along with the other nicety's like the extra deep or thicker carpet, but no air, too bad. I do have the "air dash" but that was likely put in cuz they didn't have the regular one or they realized too late on the line that mine wasn't getting air conditioning. ( Bryan from Monza-que figured that one out for me) I can't believe that the plant allowed these extra special orders but I'm sure glad they did. I know that when I spec'd the 2011 Camaro with the Biggest engine and HorsPwr that I did not want "air" or power windows. G.M. was quick to stop me in my tracks and pointed out that I had to follow a "group" or "level" I told them what to do with that and wasn't about to take that stuff off of a new car after buying it like the sales guy suggested. In the older builds, the car company's were more accomodating, especially with these models. They had really hoped the H-Body would "catch-on" better but I see now their reasoning. That's why we need to keep these cars alive. I always get people interested whenever I go out in it and I'll bet that holds true for everyone that drives an-H.
As a side note: to date, I have refused 12k, and I wish I knew of another W-66 optioned car like mine but if there are 12 or even 20 more that we don't know of, they aren't appearing anywhere, not even clones. Also, I know three members with heavily modified H-body's that were appraised at around the same amount as mine and to be totally honest, I wouldn't think twice about giving them that dollar amount for their cars. Where will you find another with that kind of build and be able to drive any of them whenever you want! A nice clean little Monza or a 400+ h.p. Vega or Astre gives me the thrill I need to be happy. My buddy's 65 vette sits most of the year and isn't fun anymore cuz it's too much crapp to go through every time we take it out. His exact words last year were, I should sell it and get something like you have that I can drive more and enjoy with out some a-hole tryin to run me off the road or hit it in a parking lot.......... (I told him, let's trade even ) not.
P.S. My bank mgr once told me that buying old cars affordably was a better return on your investment than stocks or bonds.

[stage169]

Your are making me feel better about my H's! I have a friend who collects tractors and he told me soon he will start selling them off. Then he will know how smart or how stupid he really is

I looked up some older posts and Bryan mentioned in one that the 1 of 358 was the number of Formula Sunbirds sold in Canada for 1980. I'm not following the W66 Formula and just Formula but I'm not well versed on the Pontiacs. I just thought the RPO W66 was for a Formula optioned Sunbird? There must be some extra tid bits from George Z. on your resto pack that is good!

I work at an auto assembly plant and not long ago management was talking about the new Honda plant in Indiana. The only option difference in the Honda cars being built there is a sunroof or no sunroof. Back in the day they were more accomodating.

Brian

[Sunula66]

Brian, my build sheet refers to 2507 cars "imported for sales in Canada" and of that number, 358 were W-66 optioned cars and we believe that the 2507 represents "Formula" designate only. Also, the W-66 was only installed on the "sport-hatch" models. I have been researching along with other people for about 4years now and have not come across this type of Sunbird in the U.S. or up here yet. This doesn't mean that there aren't any. We just don't know there whereabouts nor have we any record. A well known car collector, who just passed away recently, said, "if you believe that your car is "rare" or "obsilete" keep in mind that there could be 15 or 20, no one really knows"...Ron McGee. The McGee Auto Museum is in Goderich Ontario Canada. Ken McGee Literature, handbooks, pamphlets etc. for many types of cars, emblems, hood ornaments etc. sells all over the world. Go on line. They have a ton of kool stuff!

Having said that, in good condition and in todays market, anything "unique" ( not everyday or there isn't one on every street), is worth something. To establish a "bench-mark" price is always hard but you need to do a lot of research and this is finally being done.

[stage169]

I'm just guessing here but maybe the 2,507 is the total number of Sunbird Sport Hatch (HM07) Sunbirds sold in Canada.

If you can read the report it looks like RPO Z49 (Canadian Base Equipment for the Sunbird) has 11,835 Sunbirds imported to Canada.

RPO W66 shows 1,987 Formula's made for the Sunbird Sport Hatch (M07) for 1980.

Here is my resto pack and it shows the model number. I'm guessing yours looks the same but with HM07. Any chance you could post yours? Brian

[Sunula66]

Sure, all I need to do is find a way to scan it. Might take a bit of time cuzz I'm not near a computer/stationary place in my town but I'll find one. Yes, the 2507 is the number of "sport-hatchback" models sent for sales in Canada for 1980. Out of that small number, only 358 were the W-66 optioned cars and it was only on the sport-hatch body style. That's why when one of our members in the southern states asked if a notch could have this pkg. I couldn't discount it without seeing a build sheet. It may be a possibility but unlikely but can't say for sure. Remembered a picture of a notch with the rear spoiler but I thought that was done by the owner, looked great too! With the number of builds of this car like yours coming from Ste. Therese Quebec, and they were sent for sales into the U.S. I'm really shocked at the low numbers for the sunbird sent to Canada for sale. Blows my mind that they made more in Canada and they were sent to export and the Cdn. models were built in the U.S. in Lordstown and sent up here. W.T.F. can't figure out this logic, is this why they didn't catch on? I mean simply this, perhaps if they sold more in Canada of the ones that were built here or at least the same number that were made in the U.S. and sold that many up here, maybe the Cdn. market would have been more successful. Maybe the H-body would've caught on better. You have to wonder if by making a few with an option package in low quantitys,they were simply trying out a new strategy or is this a certain Cdn. model thing like the "Beaumont Pontiac" model being different for Canada only. Who knows? I know that it was the last year for this vehicle anyway. They did scrap the Pontiac line eventually anyway and again after selling really nice models like the G-8 and the GTO!
Thankfully the Aussies are building our new Police cars in the reardrive config. on the G-8 or GTO platform..(Caprice 9C-1 rear drive 6.0 litre cop-rocket!)

[SOLSAKS]

clyde biagi nailed it with his response.

i say dont worry what the value is, ( especially other peoples opinions )

if you like it, that is all that matters.

i have never built or bought a car based on anything other than my opinion and my pleasure.

i have several very sought after cars from the 60's/70's that are a lot more valuable than my 77 monza coupe w/factory v8

but it was my first car and restoring it has been more fun and meaning than any other, and any monza is very rare

due to the fact they are just not many around anymore.

i got my v8 monza in 1986 and until recently had never seen another v8 monza in person, so that tells me they are very un common,...

so keep on lovin that monza, it is rare and worth saving....in my opinion

dave in NC

[Biscayne John]

Guys,
I new to H body cars but far from new to the hobby. Cars are only original once, and there is a big difference between cars that need to be restored or to good to restore. The trend now is unrestored cars, especially rare optioned cars like this. I say preserve this or find the deep pocket guy (which I think you will when comes to original unrestored cars) and use the money to buy the candidate. I am active in a few of the big Puritan clubs AACA and VCCA and the unrestored stuff is hot now
A lot of things hold these cars back as far $ one thing I found is non mechanical parts are very hard to come by, this is true even for my 85 Caprice Wagon. Why a Model A Ford is double tht of GM car of the same era is because of parts, all the Camaro guy needs is a telephone, computer, and a credit card and they build a car.
I do see these cars assuming the roll of the Corvairs, a devout small following, from what I see I enjoy it it is a breath of fresh air to be around hobbiest that want to help and own the cars for passion not profit at the end. I don't see the ego's here that you do with the 55-57 crew or the early Big Block 348-409's

[cjbiagi]

For the most part having a big ego and a H body just doesn't go together Even those with very nice H's are pretty humble from my experience. These cars have a small niche following unlike many other more popular models and that's just the way it is and will always be.

[erik monza]

I saw a Monza first time in 1977, coming from Denmark to Canada, I was very fascinated with the cars in America and the Monza had that sleek sports car look, that you see on Italian cars, not being big, it still had a good size compared to European sports cars.

The Monza is one of very few cars that have a complete design from front to back, a lot of cars, specially today, look like there was no money to design the rear, the rear look like a different design.

First I had a 1973 Vega GT, but when I 3 month later crashed it ( not my fault) I looked for a Monza and found a 1975 - 262 4 speed, 2 years later I sold it, needed the money - moved to Calgary and board a 1978 - 305 auto Monza Spyder, I had that for 6 years and sold it for same price as I payed, now back in Denmark for 25 years I found my 3rd in Sweden a 1976 with a 262 auto, it is now a classic - antic, and in Denmark the registration tax is 180% and sales tax is 25% , so you can imagine what a Monza would cost, but as an antic, more than 35 years old, the registration tax is only a 1/4 of the original registration tax when the car was new.

I think this is a fantastic car, as I said, and it has a lot of history around it.
The Monza played a key role in the attempt to downsize american cars, to a size that is well known in Europa.
The outside lines is designed by famous Italian designer Pinin Farina.
The cars development is headed by famous John Delorean, who later build his own factory in Ireland and a car after his name, got most famous in the movies " back to the future".
The Monza was a turning point in the story of the Wankel engine.
The Monza is one of very few cars that can be had with 4 - 6 - and 8 cylinder engines
The Monza was one of the first attempts of Chevrolet trying to get into the European market and competing with the high performers like BMW and Mercedes.
The Monza is well known for the use in Motorsport.
The Monza was one of the first links between the american and european way of thinking and building cars.
Few cars in history have so much going for it.

Thanks from Erik

[marco_1978_spyder]

The outside lines is designed by famous Italian designer Pinin Farina.

Hey Erik, how are you, Happy New Year,great post. Thought I'd tweak that statement above..

The outside lines of the Monza 2+2 was drawn up by Irving Rybicki, and the clay model was mocked up in GM's studio's, with Bill Mitchell and the like around.
Pininfarina, created the first running prototypes based on those drawings and blueprints.