1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

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1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby fud2468 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:39 pm

Hi,
I'm new here, posted a lengthy description a couple of days ago but it never transmitted. Will try again.
This car's been sitting on my property for 10 years and i now want to get it going.
I looked below #3 plug for an engine number but haven't found it yet. However, there's a tag that looks like this;
J 024945
REBUILT ENGINE
POWER PAK
Previous owner said it had a rebuilt engine so if it is worth it I'd like to keep it as original as possible.
Thanks,
Ray Mac.
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby kgroombr » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:37 pm

I find myself in the same quandry. I was able to come across a 76 Vega Nomad, but unfortunately the original engine was replaced long ago. Finding a Vega with an exact numbers matching engine is rare.

However, I don't think that the Vega is not worth any more with a correct matching block as it is not a highly sought after vehicle (yet). I don't foresee that will change anytime in the near future. Cosworth Vegas are probably the only version where numbers matching means something. I have read that it is possible to restamp a block and as long as the casting numbers are correct for the year, this can be very difficult to detect if done correctly. I think this may be more difficult to detect on a Vega block as it has a block made from aluminum and I think the stamp may even more easy to "fake" on it.

I am working on obtaining a rebuilt 140 ci engine from somebody here on h-body.org. Just working on getting the funds together. Granted, it will not be an exact numbers matching engine, but it will at least be a correct engine for the Vega as it will not require any mods like putting in a V6 or V8. The engine is not even from the correct year, but it will look original and that is all that matters to me for this car.

I think it is worth getting it going. My 76 Nomad is currently in storage as I am currently working on restoring a 72 GT wagon as it already had an engine. Just taking my time and doing it right.

Whatever you do, you have to be happy with it. Me, I would keep it original as possible as finding a Vega that hasn't be cut up in some way is becoming more rare everyday.

I would like to see some pics of your 72 GT.

Good luck,
Ken
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby fud2468 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:08 pm

Thanks for the reply, Ken.
No, I know the numbers won't match if it's a rebuilt engine but that doesn't matter as long as it looks original.
I got this hatchback from an elderly cousin who had used it as a daily driver until he couldn't drive any more. It was essentially a gift and it was 10 years ago that I hitched a ride to San Francisco to drive it home, 60 miles away. I had not seen the car before.
My cousin was no mechanic, when the battery tray started to go he tried to hold it upright with a bungee cord but the battery still tilted and spilled more acid. Nothing but a big hole now where the battery was.
Driving it up even slight grades I had to shift the PG into low to make it home, no power at all. On the level at 60 the tach showed about 3100 rpm, too much for me. When I got it home I found # 2 cylinder was dead, so I could understand why it was so gutless. I was sorta disgusted and after that just let it sit there ever since.
Sorry, I have no pics, I have no digital camera. However It' silver, body is straight and interior is black and in very good condition. Back bumper is rusted but so far that's the only rust I have found.
About the engine--I was curious if anyone knew what the tag meant, if it was sleeved or what. Guess I'll find out when I pull the head.
I would also want to get a 1-BBL carb to help it run better at low rpm's, or maybe switch to an early import 2-BBL carb. Also maybe a 200c tranny if it would work and taller rear end gears if they're available.
Thanks again, Ray Mac
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby kgroombr » Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:47 pm

Hopefully it didn't sound like I insulted your intellegence the way I talked about the numbers. If I did, I am sorry as I was sure you knew about the numbers, it is just that some folks believe that it is not worth restoring a car unless it is a numbers matching vehicle.

Me, I would love to have a numbers matching Nomad, but unfortunately, to do that would require me to "fake it" and have the numbers stamped, but I would know, so I wouldn't be satisfied. So I decided just to drop a regular 140 ci in it and make it look original. It will still be an eye catcher (if done right).

Your car sounds like a great find for a restoration. I had an engine with a dead cylinder as well. I found it was one of the valve springs broke. Hope your's is an easy fix like that. If you want to do head work on the Vega, you will need that special tool to remove the cam and vavles. I found one locally for $20 from a shop that had it sitting for years of non-use. You may do what I did and call local machine shops that have been in business a while and see if they have that tool and if they would be interested in selling it. It worked for me. I see them pop up on craigslist and ebay as well.

My 72 GT wagon engine has a correct numbers matching engine, but the cylinders were in really bad shape (oil looked like it was never changed and cylinders were scoured so bad that my fingernails would stick as I scratched across the cylinder walls). I had a local shop sleeve it. The cost of the sleeves, pistons, and the work cost about $900. Not cheap for four cylinders. Engine is done, but I have to rebuild the battery box (completely gone) and prep and paint the engine compartment before putting it in.

I wonder if your engine is a sleeved engine. Only way I would know how to tell is to open it up. I know a company called fliteline engine supply used to rebuild Vega engines and all were sleeved. Not sure if the company that rebuilt yours did the same thing. I googled the name "Power Pak" and found nothing referencing the Vega 140 ci engine. The engine is an easy rebuild with simple tools (again except for the head).

The only problem you would have for restoring it is finding parts. If you have trouble let me know as I have about 40 sites bookmarked that sell stuff for the Vega. The engine gasket kit is getting harder to find, but if you need one, let me know and I will find sites that still have them. If you plan on keeping your car for any lenght of time, I would order a couple sets and keep a spare around just in case.

Let me know if you need help. I am not an expert as I have been working on my Vega for about nine months, and I have learned a bunch.

Ken
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby fud2468 » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:35 am

Thanks again, Ken.
You didn't insult my intelligence at all. It's just that I was surprised that matching numbers would matter with a Vega as much as it's an issue with other cars.
I have a lot to learn. Sounds like i can't do even a shade-tree valve grind without pulling the cam, assuming that a grind would fix it.For all I know i have a busted valve or a hole in a piston. Like you say, I won't know that until I pull the head, and I won't be able to get to that for a while. Thanks for the heads up on getting parts.
Ray.
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby kgroombr » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:13 pm

To do a valve job, you will need to pull the cam. :( Because of the overhead cam design, the cam has to be pulled in order to get the valves out. I have read somewhere that it is possible to get the cam out without the special tool, but I wouldn't try it as it would increase the possibility of damaging the cam/lifters. Maybe somebody here knows a trick how to do it without the tool and can share it with the rest of us. I think the tool would be easy to build with nothing more than a drill press and a mill. There is a lever than use used to push down on the valve spring retainers so that the retainer locks can be removed. That shouldn't take a lot to make either with the proper tools. Here is a pic:

vegatool.jpg


There one is made by Lisle and the part number is 45250. I have seen one other version in a pic.

The solid bar (the one with five bolts on it) mounts to the head. Each of the "feelers" (not sure what else to call them) are bolted on and each one covers the corner of two of the lifters. Tighten the bolt down until the lifters are far enough down so the cam will slide out. Once the cam is out, remove the feelers, then the lifters just pop out. The lever bar is then screwed into holes where the feelers were and then just position the fork over each spring retainer, push down, and use a magnetic pick up to remove the retainer locks. After that, remove the springs and the valve will drop right out. With this tool, I can do all of this in about 30 minutes, without it, I would definitely break something.

If you would like one of these, let me know and I will keep a look out for one. I find them every once in a while on craigslist or ebay.

Ken
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby fud2468 » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:46 pm

Ken, thanks again for your detailed reply and your offer to help. To locate a cam removal tool, your suggestion to check around with auto machine shops that have been in business a long time is a great one, I didn't think of that.
To save you going over info you've already posted, I've gone through some of your posts but I haven't gone through all of them yet.
I see that you just got your camshaft tool in the last couple of months.
I didn't realize head work on the 140 was so difficult until you mentioned it. Then last night I located a '72 Vega shop manual that shows the tool and the whole process. I guess the manual came with the car but I didn't remember having it!
Anyway, it still comes down to the fact that I have to pull the head first and then take it from there.
While it would be great to get the 140 running reasonably well, it may not be worth the effort. I don't know why Chevy didn't just put the Iron Duke in these in the first place.
Thanks again,
Ray.
P.S.--since nobody else has chimed in on this thread, maybe better to do PMs unless you think others will benefit from our discussion also?
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby bill1978v8 » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:28 pm

P.S.--since nobody else has chimed in on this thread, maybe better to do PMs unless you think others will benefit from our discussion also?


Please keep it on the boards as it all benefits others. I did not know how to pull the cam on a 140. Information is a good thing for everyone. Good luck to both of you on your projects.

Thanks,

Bill
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby kgroombr » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:57 am

bill1978v8 wrote:
P.S.--since nobody else has chimed in on this thread, maybe better to do PMs unless you think others will benefit from our discussion also?


Please keep it on the boards as it all benefits others. I did not know how to pull the cam on a 140. Information is a good thing for everyone. Good luck to both of you on your projects.

Thanks,

Bill


Yeah, that is my bad, I tend to ramble when I talk or type. :oops:
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby bill1978v8 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:59 pm

No problem :) I wished I would have kept my 140 I had from my old Vega. It was a sleeved block and ran really good but the car rusted away. They are good little engines when set up right.

Bill
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby fud2468 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:54 pm

Update, but I'll try to keep it short.
In one of my Nov. 6 posts I mentioned maybe getting an import 2-BBL carb. In my ignorance I didn't know the 140 had a progressive 2-BBL (Holley 5210) starting with 1973 Vegas and on the other H-bodies with Iron Duke engines in 1977-78. I assume this carb would be a bolt-on for my car and help with low-speed drivability.
Not trying to sidestep the cam issue but food for thought. I never knew there was a domestic progressive 2-BBl carb.
Was hoping that when the engine got rebuilt the carb might have been updated too, but when I open the throttle I see that both butterflies open together.
Ray Mac.
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby 72 SS PNL » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:03 pm

the rochester carb and the holley have a different bolt pattern , so you would need a newer intake

there was a reman holey 5210 on ebay , i used 1 on my old 72 with a offy dual port intake
first and best car owned 72 GT(changed to SS) panel wagon

pictures of the car from 86 - http://www.myrideisme.com/Garage/06_IBM_GOAT/955
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby fud2468 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:32 am

Oh, well, back to the old drawing board.
Thanks for the carb info, 72 SS PNL.
Ray Mac
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Re: 1972 Vega GT w/ Powerglide,questions

Postby 72 SS PNL » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:02 am

first and best car owned 72 GT(changed to SS) panel wagon

pictures of the car from 86 - http://www.myrideisme.com/Garage/06_IBM_GOAT/955
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