when to restore or when to hot rod a car

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when to restore or when to hot rod a car

Postby peterpan » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:59 am

when to restore or when to hot rod a car

if its complete and in good shape and a rare car then i say restore it but then you have a car that would be a trailer queen and i would be afraid to drive it then you have to think parts are gettin scarce for the original restore job

but if its missing major components like a motor or alot of damaged or missing boy parts or its a base model with nothing special about it or it would take a total rebuild with alot of custom fabricating then i say hot rod it :burn:


this was the ony thing i could think of to post in this forum for you colin sence i am not a factory purist type of guy mine was to far gone to restore but it only had 48,000 original miles on it
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Postby v8astregt » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:54 am

As far as these cars are concerned, I don't think many cars fall under the "must restore" category unless it's an extremely rare model which seems to be more like the later H-body's like some Skyhawks and some Mirages. As far as the Vega-style H-bodys, I think mainly the Cosworth's top the list. Nothing else seems all too rare. Unless you have something that is low-mileage, and all original, or in very nice original style condition.

I can't see myself hotrodding an already nice car. The fact of the matter is that it will cost just as much to start with a project car rather than a nice car because you're just gonna tear the nice original stuff out anyways.

In my case, the Astre GT does seem rare, but I don't even know where the market is for them since it is essentially a Vega GT with unique stripes. And besides, I did get my car from a wrecking yard! It does have a salvage title. Besides, why would I want to make it original... white with black stripes, white vinyl top, and red and white interior... just doesn't do it for me. I like white/black much better, without the vinyl top.
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Postby ColinOpseth » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:45 am

I agree with you both in many respects.

I'll first state that I agree that H-Bodies are not inherently valuable. They were built in reasonably high numbers (for '70s production) and were mainly a cheap alternative to some of the imports that were starting to flood the market. As a result, they have few power options other than power brakes and steering.

On the other hand, someone else's junk is someone else's treasure. In Josh's case that argument appears to hold some water. lmao Seriously, though... what makes an H-Body something worth restoring is not the monetary value but the preservation of history.

The H-Body has a bad rap because early models had very poor quality. Many cars had engine problems among other issues. Nonetheless, the muscle car market has forgotten a few great makes/models of vehicles; cars like Javelins, Dusters, Mustang IIs, Pintos and of course, H-Bodies.

Thus, I think the allure of restoring an H-Body is something that is unique in the classic car world. I don't think you want to restore a car like that for points because let's be honest...a 110hp gross engine is just plain gutless. But, you choose to restore a H-Body in a spirit of modern-day jest. These cars are unique. Each and every one of them has something special.

Pull your car into a car lot and people flock to them. They aren't common. They aren't even very valuable. But they're special.

I guess through all of my ramblings I'm trying to say that these cars are valuable not for their value but for their "wow" factor. Older people remember these cars as being cheap and disposable but the vast majority of the same will agree that it is very easy to make them "stupid fast." Maybe that's why they're so cool.

I don't know. I know I haven't really said anything at all but I think they're neat. I call my '72 a baby Camaro because no one knows that I'm talking about when I try to explain what it is.

Now, I think that is cool.
Later,
Colin
'72 Vega with '93 Camaro LT1/M29 T56/12 bolt 3.31. 16" IROCs all around. Sanderson headers into duals with an H-pipe and Flowmasters. It's loud but at least it's faster than your grandma's Buick. pwned.
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Postby AusRs » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:47 am

it appears that the rust a H body gets it does lend itself to tub and make into a race car ...however at some stage the lack of cars left will increase the value of a decent example (even an edsel is worth money nowdays !!!)
but really why does anyone collect any cars ......usually because they like them !future value should not really have anything to do with it
there were alot of H bodies made BUT from this side of the world it appears that many were sold into the rust belt and many were traded in for smog credits
the amount of people on these boards shows that there are not that many left running around :(
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Postby peterpan » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:03 pm

colin when some one asks me what my vega is i tell them its a australian made camaro and they belive me and ask how and where i got it
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Value?

Postby stage169 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:35 pm

There are so many variables. The market is high now. There is a whole other world out there (collectors with big cash). A few years ago Bacchus was at an auction in Illinois and there was a vega that was said to be a factory v8 prototype. Well the real story was that this car was made with the wankle engine floor board (that engine was intended to come out in the H platform) and that was it. The car was supposed to be crushed and someone somehow saved it outside the plant. Later an LT1 engine was installed and it ended up at this auction. At the auction they even had a GM person playing the story up about it being a V8 prototype. The bidding started high (all this is by memory so.... I think it started at 20k). The reason we know the truth is that the son of the previous owner was on the board.

Like you guys are saying a nice stock example would be the best bet. I think any stock addition besides the norm would help get top dollar. It would be cool to see a late model H at Barrett/Jackson and see what it would get. I just hope when I decide to sell my white Skyhawk the market is like or better than it is now :D . If you hadn't already seen this here you go......
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factory original purist

Postby mastiff » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:16 pm

I paid 5,000 for mine. was it worth it? to me it was. I plan on dropping a v-8 in it and change to a posi rearend. but, i am keeping all original parts just incase i decide later to put it back the way i got it. not touching body other than paint, also keeping inteior the way it is including stock am-fm radio.
as for how much I would pay for another, and I do plan on buying more. that would depend on how much I had and the car itself. of course now that I have one again. I would like to have one origial, one mild and one wild. ok I'd really like more than that butafter that I think I would keep them stock.
so, they can keep the camaro's, vette's, etc... as colin said " I like the wow factor" but most of all I love all H-body cars from start to finish. the other cars are nice but I'm an h-body nut.
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Postby v8astregt » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:36 pm

That's funny AusRs that you mention the Edsel... I've got two myself! One is not for sale, but I have been watching the value go up and that makes me feel better about my investment.


Speaking of Australia and such, I know Australia is big, but how big is the car community? Reason being is that two years ago, my dad and I sold an Edsel we finished to a gent in Australia. He paid $13,000 for it, plus the shipping to Australia! I doubt you'd see it, but it's tan/dark brown with tan interior, and it's slammed to the ground. It had Cragars when it left the states, don't know if that's what he kept. We supplied original caps, but someone on the ship stole them! :x
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Postby 73Sedan » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:10 pm

An H-body purist? Maybe for the rare styles yes, but to me the base Vega itself will never garner any real respect. Yes, everyone gives major props to the guy with "the funny old car" that just blew his doors off, but really, would anyone other than an older previous owner of a Vega ever approach an original appearing one other than to say "yup, I had one of these back in the day."???

The Vega itself has always been a car screaming to be a muscle car...hell, Ford made one (Mustang II) as thier primary late '70s response to the gas wars for muscle guys. And face it, it's still a relatively inexpensive, "most bang for your buck", every teen's got one hot rod.

OK, long winded, but the point is I bought my 73 with 46500 original clicks and only needing a carb rebuild...do I feel bad about stripping it down to build a pavement pounder out of it?.......No. To me, I'm simply rebuilding it the way I believe it should have been to begin with. My only concession was that I refuse to back-half the car since it was in such good shape and it would be better to look like a factory job (except for the mandatory cage and subframe joining)
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Postby AusRs » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:50 am

v8astregt wrote:That's funny AusRs that you mention the Edsel... I've got two myself! One is not for sale, but I have been watching the value go up and that makes me feel better about my investment.


Speaking of Australia and such, I know Australia is big, but how big is the car community? Reason being is that two years ago, my dad and I sold an Edsel we finished to a gent in Australia. He paid $13,000 for it, plus the shipping to Australia! I doubt you'd see it, but it's tan/dark brown with tan interior, and it's slammed to the ground. It had Cragars when it left the states, don't know if that's what he kept. We supplied original caps, but someone on the ship stole them! :x

usa car community is a reasonable size considering our population (around 20 million)
at most decent shows we get around 400 cars ,all different types it does however appear that there are more Rustangs here than most other cars (could be wrong though )

back to the Edsel .......what state did it get shipped to ??? if NSW then its a possibility that i hav seen it .....if another state then i would say no
as for shipping ...........many parts dissapear off of cars in transit ......just a fact of life :(:(
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Postby barebonesracecars » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:54 am

For the most part, I agree with Ray's original post.

My only exception might be if it's super rare, but it is a rusty parts car, it may be worth repairing or restoring. Problem is, once you replace "X" amount of parts, is it 'original' again? Of course not. It's only original once. So, back to the dilemma.

My personal feeling is that these cars will never bring muscle-car-stratosphere prices. The reason is because they were, and always intended to be, base cars. Sure, there are appearance packages....Mirages, C06 Skyhawks, Spyders, Firenzas, but none of them were ever 'performance' cars.

People remember the hot rod days when all Chevelles looked alike, but they knew that some of them sported big blocks from the factory. Even a drab model got looks.

Same with a Tempest......people knew it wasn't a GTO, but it resembled one, and was in fact the Goat's little brother. It garnered respect.

H-bodies? What are they known for? Rust. They are your kid sister's college car......grandma's parking-lot-dinged blah-mobile. None of them were fast. And by my amateur estimation, only a few hundred of us even recall what they looked like....because they are sitting in our garages. As Colin said, drive a nice one to a car show and see how many questions you get....people have forgotten them, because most of them are gone.

A true original, clean, perhaps with low mileage, may someday cross the Barrett-Jackson block for a $$$ amount higher than we're seeing now (Ron Lee's Mirage comes to mind). Will it be $25,000? $70,000? $120,000? Who knows? It all depends on how bad someone wants it. Maybe a future millionaire oilman will recall his dad talking about this little red-white-and-blue thing with those itty-bitty 13" wheels he had as a teenager...and he'll have to have one himself.

I figure I've got at least three times as much in my car as it will ever be worth....on the market. But that's not why I built it.
Reid

*1979 Buick Skyhawk SCCA/street/show*
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Postby bugdewde » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:23 pm

Value vs worth????
Not many people value H-bodies, so they won't be worth much.

Not until there is some value associated with it. If not personal experience, something has got to infuse some value into the H-bodies. They've got to be seen and heard before that happens...... or some magazine dude showers accolades and praises over them..... yeah, right.

One day they may hold value........ but not very soon.

I'll have: $1300 purchase, $200 carb, $100 crank, $100 machining costs, several hundred $$ in interior parts, $2k-$3k in body/paint, many more $100 items gathered along the way......... Well over $5000 depending on A/C and various other costs. Probably nearing $7,000 before it's all done. Will I ever sell it for that? Never..... no one in their right mind would pay such for a Vega. However, I value it as such. We're just not right :lol:
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Postby barebonesracecars » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:09 pm

We're just not right.


I think Dwight just nailed it.

Enough said. End of story. Close the thread. Goodnight.

:cheers:
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Postby geartwister39 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:39 am

just my opinion ... but MOST cars suck as original anyway. 90% of them just too plain.like have no personality. put some nice rims on it give it a 4bbl and duals , shift kit ,posi ,stereo and drive the wheels off of it. agaain ..just my opinionand does not represent the h body orginization :lol: :lol:
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Postby marco_1978_spyder » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:46 am

I think my red spyder is a good example for this topic.

The more I look the more it appears that there are VERY few 1978 spyders left with under 78k miles on them. In similar condition as mine.

Now granted theres always those unknown garage queen cars that are waiting to pop up in years to come....so lets say my car is among a few hundred left to chose from, in similar condition.

Thats still really rare.

This situation, for me, says, keep it just as it sits, your sitting on a rare piece of history.

I for one cant stand the misinformed.

Thats probably some of the reason I have such passion for this car....a car shrouded in mystery and misinformation.(before the internet).

So, its important to me, to keep the originality of the car as intact as possible.

To a point

My spyder right now by appearance, is 99% just like it was ordered. No changes. The factory spyder stuff, is exactly like the factory applied it.

One problem.....sometime in 1986, the car was freshened up by a body shop.
A quick coat of code 75 red (but slightly more orangey as compared to places on the front nose (underneath) where the paint has chipped away).

Another set of spyder decals from the dealership was also applied.

Its possible that there was even some damage repair.

So I can no longer pass it off as 100% original.

It looks close enough to fool most for sure.

But this unoriginality issue, plus the fact that I like drive it like its my 'poor-mans Sunbeam tiger'
ie: lots of motor in to small of a chassis,
keeps me from going back to 100% stock and garage queening the car.

So this leads me to a sensible 'resto-mod" desicion for the car.

I've got a good start- the original 305 was warmed over completely in 1997.

It runs fantastic, and only needs some exhaust mods to fully wake up.

The extent of the mods on this ride are being planned around the cars originality as described above.

In other words.....while I'd love a fully moded street monza with mirage flares and wicked paint & wheels....

this car is going to utilize its original appearance for a true resto-mod.

The wheels are what actually give me the most headache..

I love the whole 'idiom' of driving a v8 monza....it only had 13" wheels and handled like it!
I've always loved the fun you could have with the factory equippement.

I have the factory aluminum's.
There cheap to use and look awesom on the car.

With my suspension kit and the posi, they are a blast to ride on.

Trouble is, I can see how cool the car would look with that modern pro-touring theme, with some big brakes and say 15" minilite style rims with some thin rubber.

Then theres the steering wheel.....original spyder wheel? looks awesome, feels fine.

Or the Grant Gt wheel, which feels awesome and works mint with the suspesion kit.
But its all black and dosent look as good as the original.
It also blocks the gauges.

One other possibility is to sell the red spyder as is for every possible dollar it could currently catch.

and switch building up a monza that I have more freedom with.

Maybe not though...I personally dont want to go to wild with a street monza anyways....

I love to see when other people do though dont get me wrong.

Personally, I like the old technologies that make the car what it is.

I like that it did everything well with the old stuff.

and the early inceptions of some then-new technologies.

the big deal for me is to do what the new car crowd can do just as good, with the old stuff.

I'm usually around the same corner , just as fast, without as much finesse, but with more exitement and a bigger grin.

But thats only when stock stuff is modified.

Hey, the car is going to be scrap metal someday...might as well enjoy it while I have it right?
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