manual brake rod solution anyone?

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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby gotmud7 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:52 pm

I read today in Popular Hot Rodding ( the month with all the girl pictures) that Baer Brake will help you with determining where you should put a hole for your pushrod. They base it off a formula and the brake information you give them. Mark
Last edited by gotmud7 on Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby Rickracer » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:17 pm

I can get one of the guys on the V8 S10 board to measure theirs, several of them have manual setups on drag truck with fenderwell headers.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby Rickracer » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:08 am

Had one guy measure so far, but apparently he didn't understand what we were looking for. A friend of mine is going to measure his today, and I'm confident he will have the numbers you need, :th:
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby Rickracer » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:54 pm

OK, had two guys measure, one came up with 2" from bottom of pivot to bottom of rod attachment and posted this pic:

http://www.v8s10.org/forum/download/file.php?id=1893

The other said 1.75" from pivot to brake rod, both on manual brake trucks.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby 73astregt » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:36 pm

[quote="olds70supreme"]"I have been thinking about this for awhile now. I thought the answer was pretty obvious. If you are using S10 front brakes, and S10 rear brakes, - why not just use the appropriate S10 master cylinder? But, I think there are both manual and power brake S10s out there ( at least in the 1980's). Do they use the same or different master cylinders? Can you get a power brake master cylinder and not use the power booster? "

Mark,

I've got the single piston S10 brakes (80's vintage) and thought the same as you, so I ordered an S10 non-power brake MC (the parts catalogues list two separate numbers for power and non-power brakes) and installed it. I admittedly have never driven a car w/o power brakes before, but the pedal seems very stiff. It stops the car and everything appears to be functioning, but it takes a LOT of leg power to do so. Also, it seems as though there is not very much stroke to the pedal. This is a head scratcher as I assumed that the matched S10 components would work well together, the only thing I can think of is that I was actually given a power brake MC, which means the bore is larger than it should be. After having the winter months to think about it and seeing this thread I have an itch to try the same master as Fred (73astregt).

Fred,

I read through the posts and would like to be certain of the MC that you have used successfully: Is it a late 70's Camaro MC for non-power brake applications? If not please correct me. Also, a part # and brand would be awesome when you have the time to post.

Thanks.[/quote]
the master i used was a 75 to 80 camaro manual master. not perfect but way better than what it was with the power one! im going with an 8.5 disc s10 rear now (if it comes with disc ill find out tuesday lol disc would be nice but ill go 8.5 drum too.) old rear is a 8 3/4 chrysler and the drums suck on it(shoddy parts match up by previous owner)the cryco rear needs a complete rebuild with axles and everything so the 8.5 will work out cheaper and ill have the same bolt pattern all the way around the car so i can carry a spare.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby BadBowtie » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:31 pm

I dont want to hijack this thread but you guys are the brake masters! Quick question if i'm running s10 disk brakes in front and a ford 9" with drums out back. Would a power setup work off a 75-80 camaro and give me the proper ratio? (id like to go power brakes).

If anyone can point me where to go before i buy the wrong part or tell me it will or wont work be great

Thanks
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby 73astregt » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:44 pm

bowtie read the post below this one chuck explains things pretty well there.
Last edited by 73astregt on Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby 73astregt » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:46 pm

[quote="cosvega76"][quote="73astregt"]chuck i have a 73 camaro power master in the car now IT has a hard pedal lol! i got the manual camaro master today and i could see the bore register is quite a bit smaller than the one in the car now. ill take a pic of the register bore with the digital calipers tomorrow nite after work so we can compare the pics between the power and the manual. i had an s10 master to start out with and it would not even fit in the booster and the rod cup at all!. im not into making the hole for the master any bigger in the firewall. i cant see why putting a camaro manual master on should give me a hard pedal as thats what its for, manual disc brakes. the rear brakes are a non issue as i have an adjustable prop valve in the rear brake line.
[/quote]

I missed this response since it was in the quote. Sorry! Ok, Fred, let's start from the beginning.

First of all, the reason the S-10 master won't fit in the firewall is because it is a Quick Take Up style of master. This means there is a large bore next to the firewall (31.75mm / 1-1/4") - with the corresponding large register boss - to move a lot of fluid into the Metric (S-10) style caliper to set the pads against the rotor. The Metric style calipers have a 2-1/2" diameter piston with a seal design that pulls the piston and pads away from the rotor to lessen the drag for better fuel economy. When the pads contact the rotor, and the brake fluid pressure reaches a certain point, the quick-take-up valve bypasses the fluid back into the reservoir and the main bore (24mm / 15/16") of the master takes over. Then it responds like the main bore, to pressurize the brake system for normal service brake control.

Next, the Camaro power brake master has a 1-1/8" bore for use with a booster. The Camaro calipers have a 2-15/16" diameter piston with a traditional seal. Since there is no extra clearance to take up to apply the pads, there is no quick-take-up section to the master. But since there is more volume to be displaced, and less pressure required because of the larger caliper piston diameter, the master cylinder bore is larger.

The Camaro manual brake master is similar. It has a 1" bore to allow more pressure to be generated without the use of a booster. But it still is activating the large piston diameter, so the volume and pressure requirements are matched to this caliper. This master will work with the Metric calipers, but their volume requirement is less, since the piston diameter is smaller. But also, since the piston diameter is smaller, it requires more pressure from the master cylinder to create the same braking force. This is why you need a correctly-sized (smaller) master cylinder for proper pedal feel and pressure with manual brakes.

I am intentionally discounting the rear brakes since both vehicles use similarly sized brakes (9-1/2" x 2") with proportionally less difference in the wheel cylinder bore diameter: 7/8" or 3/4" for the S-10, and 7/8" for the Camaro.

HTH

Chuck[/quote] read this bad bowtie
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby BadBowtie » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:23 am

Thanks 73astregt i read this thread over and over... but i just kept missing something, sorry for the hijac
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby 73astregt » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:58 am

you did not hijack. this thread was put in the best of section so everyone could put thier experiences and knowledge here for others to to use. ill be expecting your input and pics when you figure out what worked best for you!
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby BadBowtie » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:29 am

[quote="73astregt"]you did not hijack. this thread was put in the best of section so everyone could put thier experiences and knowledge here for others to to use. ill be expecting your input and pics when you figure out what worked best for you![/quote]

When you ran your camaro power master, did you also use the booster? From what i read/understand both setups should be about equal if not better so long as the positioning on the pedal is correct. In fact having the power setup should yield a softer/as effective pedal response over the manual master because the manual master has the smaller bore (which would have a harder pedal).


I have so much to learn!
Last edited by BadBowtie on Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby Rickracer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:33 pm

On S10s, there is definitely a difference in where the rod from the master or booster attaches to the pedal between P/B and manual brakes, it is higher, closer to the pivot bolt, giving more leverage, and at the same time, more travel. Never had P/Bs on an H body, so I can't say for sure about that.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby 73astregt » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:33 pm

my car is set upwith manual brakes for now, i was trying to put an aftermarket small diameter booster on the car but same problem the s10 master would not fit the booster,i wanted the car back on the road and i really didnt feel like ripping out all the brand new brake lines i had just made and installed to move the low brake light junction block away from the stock position so it would not interfere with the booster. one daywhen i get some other things done on the car ill revisit the power brake project and give it another go.
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby BadBowtie » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:33 pm

[quote="73astregt"]my car is set upwith manual brakes for now, i was trying to put an aftermarket small diameter booster on the car but same problem the s10 master would not fit the booster,i wanted the car back on the road and i really didnt feel like ripping out all the brand new brake lines i had just made and installed to move the low brake light junction block away from the stock position so it would not interfere with the booster. one daywhen i get some other things done on the car ill revisit the power brake project and give it another go.[/quote]


After some more reading it seems that an 8" Dual booster should be sufficient for 4 wheel disks (so to me that means rear drums as well with a proportioning valve) ... ill keep reading maybe someone else has some input as well. I think that this could be beneficial over the camaro 11" booster because it is both dual and smaller (for better clearance if that becomes an issue).

http://www.piratejack.net/Power-Brake-B ... -Dual.html
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Re: manual brake rod solution anyone?

Postby BadBowtie » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:36 am

So after another day of research i believe that a 7" Dual booster would work. Sometime this week or weekend i'm going to visit my car in storage and do some measuring to see if it could fit! If given the choice i think that this would be what id go for as long as i could directly bolt it to the firewall:

http://www.piratejack.net/Booster-Conve ... -Dual.html

Not really sure how well this would work but it says 1200 psi with a 1" bore which is very strong for such a small bore in my opinion (greater than a single 9") also its 119$ and i might be able to get it at the local parts store cheaper.

Also if i get this part it may be a while before i get it all setup so i really cant afford to go wrong (switching from stock suspension to grafted s10 balljoints & spindles etc, ford 9", M21 hydraulic setup, SBC, driveshaft, exhaust, and brake lines before being tested... long way to go...)
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