Pontiac V8 H-Body

[res0o7eb]

4.000 B x 3.75 S = 377
4.030 B x 3.75 S = 383
4.040 B x 3.75 S = 385
4.060 B x 3.75 S = 388
4.125 B x 4.00 S = 428 (sleeved and stroked?)
4.155 B x 4.25 S = 461 (sleeved and really stroked?)

NOTE: PHR has an article on a Ford 351W engine with 4.00" stroke crank. Deck height is same as Pontiac 301 and taller than SB Chevy. Pontiac 4.00" stroker crank with 3.00" dia. mains is $699 through well-known engine builders. On ebay $299. I wonder if it would work without much grinding on the block?

No replacement for displacement - in a light weight package, too!

SBC iron heads = 42 lbs. ea.
SBC aluminum heads = 23 lbs. ea.
Weight savings = 19 lbs. or 44%.
applying this to the Pontiac iron head:
55 lbs. X 44% = 24 lbs. lighter = 31 lbs. ea. x 2 = 62 lbs.
301 iron heads = 94 lbs.
Additional savings = 32 lbs. (94 - 62).
301 w/iron heads = 452 lbs.
301 w/alum heads = 420 lbs. (Estimated)
Add additional weight for heavier, fully counterweight crank. Probably won't see any savings from any aluminum intake. Sheet metal intake, yes. what about aluminum rods and flywheel?

EDIT 9/17/2007 :
There are Pontiac 11-hole(69 and later) Aluminum water pumps offered on ebay for about $60.
Alum. water pump = 5.3 lbs.
Iron water pump = ??? lbs. (8 lbs?)
March has an Aluminum two-groove crank pulley offered through Summit (ebay) for $80.
Alum. crank pulley = ??? lbs.
Steel crank pulley = ??? lbs.

Other ideas to get the extra weight off of the front end:
1. Relocate battery.
2. Fiberglass hood.
3. Fiberglass fenders.
4. Fiberglass bumper.
5. Fiberglass front-end (instead of 2,3,4 above)
6. Remove steel spring plates behind bumper (some fabrication required).
7. Aluminum radiator (needed anyway for cooling - probably doesn't save anything over stock L4 radiator, though).
8. Aluminum steering box - hey, we're desperate.
9. No power steering (OK, this doesn't really count).
10. Aluminum Muncie (replace iron Saginaw - not much weight off the front-end though).
11. Hollow sway bar (nobody makes them for a H-body, yet).
12. Aluminum driveshaft (not much off front end, either).
13. Aluminum wheels (rims for the younger crowd).
14. Helium-filled tires (OK, this is getting stupid).

NOTE:
Pontiac Iron Duke 151 L4 = 350 lbs.
Chevy Vega SOHC 140 L4 = 285 lbs. ???
Chevy Vega SOHC 140 L4 = 345 lbs. (R&T 8/73)
Chevy Vega DOHC 122 L4 = 305 lbs. ("Ready-to-Run" R&T 8/73)
Buick 231 V6 = 375 lbs.
Chevy 350 V8 = 575 lbs.

Found this post from "Pontiacpoweredvega" about a 301 Stroker on PHR Forum:
http://forums.popularhotrodding.com/70/ ... page4.html

[NixVegaGT]

I've worked pretty hard at weight awareness. My engine ends up around 340 lbs. That's like 50 lbs. overweight on the front over the stock engine. So what I did was:

• Removed the whole front bumper assembly. I'm planning on flushing out the front end. The brackets counted for more than half of the 22 lbs. of the front bumper.
• Relocate battery. This counts for a lot of weight distribution.
• Aluminum/Plastic BMW radiator.
• Custom permanent crossmember. This added some weight.
• Removed the steering box system and added a rack steering system. That's what the custom crossmember was for. This removed weight and redistributed the weight farther back.
• Headers. Not much weight savings but every little bit counts.

The wheels and tires are unsprung weight and will not make a difference for weight distribution but weight savings in these areas will make for better suspension performance. I'll write more if I can think of it.

[res0o7eb]

Everytime I read this thread I get to thinking about a pontiac V8 for my Sunbird.

Just do it, Roger.

Does anyone have an overall length from trans to fan?

I took some actual measurements(est. within 1/2" plus or minus):
301 Engine - from trans mating surface to water pump pulley flange = 29.5"
350 Trans - from engine mating surface to rear flange = 27.5"

it looks like it would require a radiator relocation.

Probability is very high.
Install radiator in front of core support.
This has been done on a Vega. I don't think it's been done on a Sunbird.
Here's some prior discussion on the subject(includes link to vegatex front-mounted radiator w/ pusher electric fan):
http://forums.h-body.org/viewtopic.php?t=20360
Also, radiator deal:
http://forums.h-body.org/viewtopic.php?t=20537


I removed everything in front of the core support from my 77 Vega GT "mule".
Two parts look to interfere with a radiator installed forward of the core support:
1. A horizontal rod between the bumper attachment brackets. Easily removed and it isn't structural.
2. A vertical bracket that attaches to the bottom of the core support and to the upper header panel. Easily removed. Not sure if it is structural, but some fabrication could be done to replace it.
There are other things to consider when mounting the radiator this way, but it looks like one would FIT with minimal problems.

[SunbirdMan]

Thanks Tom, I measure my clearance and I've got 2.75" in front of my stock sbc. So that would leave .75". hmmm. You know, I got to thinking about it and I've got this 305 in it now. Wouldn't be much point in swapping to a 301 except to go Pontiac. But now we're talking 383 ? I'm into low end torque but have you run across any high reving 301s. Just curious what someone might have pushed it to.

Edit: I misread your post so let me clarify. According to my research, the sbc is 21.78" plus the short waterpump of 5 13/16" come to 27.59" . So the pontiac would be 1.91" longer. That's doable in my sunbird witout moving the radiator.

[res0o7eb]

Roger,

If you already have a 305, I wouldn't do this conversion. A V-6 Sunbird is probably a better candidate. Nothing against Buick.
I have noticed that the engine compartment in my Sunbird is slightly longer than the engine compartment in my Astre.
The Pontiac 301 V-8 was NOT a high-revver at all. Push it past 4500-5000 RPM and the crank will break.

Engine dimensions according to this site:
http://www.carnut.com/specs/fengdim.html
Length:
Chevy 262-400 = 26.5" (short WP)
Chevy 262-400 = 27.9" (long WP)
Pont 350-400 = 28.3" (could there be a short Pontiac WP? Std. 11-hole WP is 4.5")
Pont 455 = 29.5"
NOTE: Add about 3/8" for the WP nipple.
Width:
Chevy 262-400 = 22" (valve covers?)
Pont 350-455 = 27" (exhaust manifolds?)

Here's other sites - all with slightly different numbers:
http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engin ... chart.html
http://www.nationaltbucketalliance.com/ ... nesize.asp
http://www.westechperformance.com/dimensions.htm

[SunbirdMan]

The 305 is coming out for an cubic inch upgrade anyway. But here in CA the smog laws are restricting my choices. I have to use a 1978 or newer. Pontiacs may be out of the question. from wikipedaea:

"As Pontiac V8s were completely blackballed from the State of California beginning in 1977 due to the inability to meet the Golden State's more stringent emission control standards"

I knew about the 403 olds used in trans ams but didn't know all Pontiac v8s were banned.

[res0o7eb]

Roger,

I understand. I thought CA had a rolling 30-year exemption on emissions, but I think they changed it to 74 and earlier or something.
WA still has the rolling exemption.

I don't really like wiki... due to the poor writing skills and the EMOTION that people use. Like "blackballed" - I'm not exactly sure what that means, but "completely blackballed"? Not just "partially blackballed"? I doubt that really happened - poor choice of words, IMO. Why add a reference to the "Golden State"? How about "not offered for sale in California due to failure to comply with that state's more stringent emissions regulations"?

Actually, NO Pontiac motors were offered in CA in the 1977 model year, not just the V-8.

Factual information is available in a 1977 Pontiac sales brochure. Yes, everywhere throughout the entire product line, an astrerisk is placed next to any mention of Pontiac engines:
"Pontiac's all new 5.0 litre (301 CID) V-8" *
* 5.7 litre (350 CId) mandatory in Calif. and high altitude counties.
"Pontiac's new cast-iron 2.5 litre (151 CID)" **
** California and high altitude counties get a 2.3 litre 2bbl four.

By the way, why did Pontiac have such a tough time meeting emissions regulations? I have never read anything on that issue.

[NixVegaGT]

Hey Tom. Any action on the stroker 301?

[res0o7eb]

Hey Tom. Any action on the stroker 301?

Yeah, it's been awhile. Top end stuff so far.

For $100, I obtained a 1970 Pontiac 354 engine with 11X heads and stock intake and exhaust manifolds. Guy threw in a 400 crank, too! All looks to be in really good condition.

HEADS:
I test fitted one of the 11X heads on the 301 block with exhaust manifold attached (that's how they were when I purchased them). No head gasket. There was some interference somewhere that would not allow the head to sit flat on the block deck. I tried both sides and both heads - same problem.
So I unbolted the exhaust manifold from one of the heads and placed the head on the block. Seemed like the 301 block 'nipples' are a little larger than the mating hole in the 11X head or something. Still need to verify, but it's real close. A head gasket might even correct this.

EXHAUST MANIFOLDS:
There seems to be some interference between the back side of one exhaust manifold and the side of the block. Again, close but not quite, right. The other manifold has a rounded head on it, so I haven't been able to get it off, yet.

Not real concerned about this right now as custom headers may be the only choice for an exhaust system in a H-Body. I'll test fit the manifolds later with a motor in a car.

INTAKE:
Even with both heads placed on the 301 block and not quite seated correctly, it is CLEARLY obvious the the stock intake manifold will not work. There would also be some alignment issues between the top water pump outlet where it seals with the thermostat housing/crossover. I will get pictures later.
This is solvable with a custom intake as we've mentioned previously:

The 301 has a shorter deck height. So, using any other head - which will bolt on with no problem - would require a custom-built manifold (somebody did it - there was an article in HPP).

SO then I'm thinking you get some aluminum 400 heads and fab a custom intake. Maybe you could modify an existing intake. Not likely though. You could make an intake out of tube...

Ditto on the tube intake.... I've seen custom sheetmetal intakes for the 215 engines, as well as air-cooled VW.... so why not. Heck, just add a couple plenums and some injectors.......

Yes! EXACTLY! I found an interesting design on ebay recently(see attached pictures). This manifold is for an early 60's Pontiac engine. Notice the plenums under each carb triplet and the center cross-over tubes between them. Just shorten the length of the tube and this type of manifold would fit on a short deck 301. Now think sheet metal and tubing instead of casting and a Weber IDE 3bbl on each side instead of 6 2bbl whatevers.

[res0o7eb]

That is the title of an article in the May 2007 issue of High Performance Pontiac. It's about putting a REAL Pontiac engine in a 1994 Trans Am. The engine was based on a 301. Here's the specs:

1. 1980 Turbo 301 Block (actually ALL 80-81 301 engines are based off of the turbo block) bored 0.030" over.
2. Modified 400 crank (entire rotating assembly was balanced):
... A. Rod journals offset ground. Dia. reduced from 2.25" to 2.00" and de-stroked from 3.75" to 3.52".
... B. Main journals untouched.
... C. Crank counterweights turned down about 5/8" for block clearance and weight reduction.
3. Scat Eagle I-Beam rods - 6" SBC with 2.00" rod journals.
4. ARP rod bolts.
5. Clevite 77 Rod Bearings.
6. KB Hypereutectic pistons - 0.030" over 327 SBC with .125 raised dome.
7. Sealed Power rings.
8. Edelbrock 72cc aluminum heads.
9. Comp Cams Extreme Energy hydraulic XE 274 - 230/236 dur. 0.537"/0.540" lift.
10. Crane 1.65 roller rocker arms.
11. Custom "Tribal Flow Gen 2" sheet metal intake from Fuel Injection Specialties.
12. Ford SVO 20-lb injectors.
13. BBK 58mm throttle body - front mounted.
14. K&N filter in stock LT1-style airbox.
15. Pontiac long-branch exhaust manifolds (i.e. these are RARE).
16. 2.5" Carsound cats.
17. Flowmaster mufflers
18. Custom Engine cover

This combination results in a Pontiac 359 c.i. engine putting out 300 HP and 340 PF at the rear wheels!
It passed North Carolina emissions test - tailpipe measurement (I assume, article didn't specifically mention it) AND visually. The engine looks stock with the engine covers installed. Only the aluminum heads peak through a bit.

[NixVegaGT]

This is just what we were talking about! COOL. I had no idea that they made a 6" small journal rod. That's just what's needed I think. Great rod ratio. This could be a pretty hot engine. I love it.

The 354... I that an overbored 350 or something?


Great info Tom. Pretty exciting stuff.

[res0o7eb]

I had no idea that they made a 6" small journal rod. That's just what's needed I think. Great rod ratio. This could be a pretty hot engine. I love it.

The 354... I that an overbored 350 or something?

http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/ConnectingRods.htm

A factory stock Pontiac '350' engine has a 3.876 in. bore and 3.75 in. stroke resulting in a 354 cu. in. displacement. But it was referred to as a 350 for some reason.

[NixVegaGT]

Huh! Interesting. I'm really looking forward to this project. Keep us posted, Tom. What color is your project? You could go with Smokey and the Bandit scheme! Or get a flaming chicken painted on the hood!

Speaking of that: I was watching a Year One buildup of a '77 Firebird with Burt Reynolds. They came up with a really smart flaming chicken design. It was simplified. Very cool. The Burt wanted to add a bunch of gold accents to it. I liked the first one though... Give'em what they want though...

[HI WINDING MONZA]

Now they come out with those rods after I was struggling with my 2.5's all these years.................................... Oh well, to late now to turn back! Doug in AZ

[NixVegaGT]

I just wanted to bump one of my favorite threads... Here' a link to a site that has a bunch of custom intakes for the Buick/Rover hybrid guys like me:

http://www.mez.co.uk/ms12.html

Not too helpful for the Pontiacs but there are a couple good ideas with fabricated intakes there... Here's another link to a buddy of mine that has a Buick powered MGB.

http://www.britishv8.org/MG/JimBlackwood.htm

He recently built a new custom blower intake for his 340. He also was planning on a fiberglass intake last time I was talking to him... He was always saying stuff like: You can make an intake out of wood if you can seal it well. LOL!