60˚ V-6 Swap

Moderator: Moderators

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby res0o7eb » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:12 am

spyder_xlch wrote:I was actually thinking of swapping a Honda engine in one of my Monzas for fuel economy and since I already have the engine to use. I don't think that swap would get any popularity votes either.
Well, Matt, you are so popular around here nobody would mind (or care, either). :D
Actually this would be interesting if you mounted it longitudinally up front and powered the rear wheels as god intended.
Any plan other than that and we'd have to "get a rope 'cause there'll be a hangin' in PA".
User avatar
res0o7eb
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Near Seattle, WA

1977 Pontiac Sunbird Hatchback


Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby res0o7eb » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:21 am

res0o7eb wrote:The new 3.6 DOHC V-6 is an all-aluminum engine and RWD!! Interesting. The 2.8 DOHC is just a smaller variant.
HEY HEY HEY Look at this - http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/711665310.html - A 2.8 DOHC V-6 out of a Cadillac CTS for $275!?! Just called, it is a complete engine and may even include an uncut harness. I know nothing about this engine, so more research. Stay tuned ...
Just bought it - a year later for $200. Not sure what I am going to do with it but this engine is complete and has everything:
    Wire Harness(es) (uncut, but a bazillion connectors and wires everywhere, but grouped and organized nicely)
    Engine-mounted ECM (brain box)
    Alternator
    Power-steering pump and reservoir
    A/C compressor
    Exhaust Manifolds
    Motor Mounts
    Starter - even the battery cables are still attached. On a CTS, the battery mounts between the firewall and the wheel well on the right side.
    Complete FI set-up - Throttle-body, Mass Air Flow(or MAP, not sure) sensor, injectors, plenum (aluminum casting is delta-wing shaped - sort of), etc.
    Coil Packs or whatever - not sure if they are there or what they even look like. :?
A 5-speed automatic was connected to it, so I am looking for one of those - cheap. I don't know if the electronic gizmos on the engine would work with the 6-speed (preferred).
Last edited by res0o7eb on Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
res0o7eb
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Near Seattle, WA

1977 Pontiac Sunbird Hatchback

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby ck_carnut » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:37 am

If the CTS came with a stick (I think it did, they were going up against BMW 3-series), you should be able to find a stock ECM for a manual CTS, as well as the flywheel, clutch and trans. Should make life easier.
My fleet:
'75 Cosworth Vega #1103
'77 MG Midget
'91 BMW 318is (the next project)
'00 Ranger (Parts hauler and occasional tow rig)
'09 WRX (her DD)
User avatar
ck_carnut
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: New Jersey

1975 Chevrolet Vega Cosworth

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:14 pm

When the FWD X bodies came out in 1980 they were 1/10th faster in the 1/4 mile with a 2.8 than a Sunbird with the 305 and 4speed. (Car and Driver 1979)

I had a 1984 Olds Omega with the 2.8 and it was a snappy car. It was unusual for a GM engine in that it sounded cool as it revved. Totally Indy 500, strong top end.. Pulled great when floored.
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1978 Sunbird notchback 4cyl Auto
2006 Chevrolet Aveo 5 speed Hatchback
Yes, you can refer to me as Mark
Please visit my blog... http://chevymonza.blogspot.com/ Follow if you like!
Featuring special guests; Carl Beraytor and Ray D'atore

My Red spyder now has a youtube channel please Like and Subscribe!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOzzSR ... ISuing7KLA
User avatar
marco_1978_spyder
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 5241
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: Western, New YorK / Rochester

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby res0o7eb » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:41 pm

Yes, the 6-speed manual Aisin AY6 was the standard transmission in the 2005 Cadillac CTS. There is a picture of it on page 1 of this thread. Here's another from the 2007 GM archives:
07 Aisin MV1 TFL LoR.jpg
07 Aisin MV1 TFL LoR.jpg (103.81 KiB) Viewed 885 times

Here is a picture of the 5-speed automatic.
07 5L40 M82-MX5 CA LoR.jpg
07 5L40 M82-MX5 CA LoR.jpg (145.06 KiB) Viewed 885 times

Some, of the wiring on this engine is for the transmission. But I don't know if it is the same for manual and automatics. I suspect not. I am looking for a service manual that doesn't cost more than what I spent on the engine. :)
marco_1978_spyder wrote:When the FWD X bodies came out in 1980 they were 1/10th faster in the 1/4 mile with a 2.8 than a Sunbird with the 305 and 4speed. (Car and Driver 1979)
Marco,
Yeah, the 80's were not known for powerful engines. Today's V-8 engines are a marvel of power and efficiency. That 'trickles down' to the V-6 engines, too.
marco_1978_spyder wrote:I had a 1984 Olds Omega with the 2.8 and it was a snappy car. It was unusual for a GM engine in that it sounded cool as it revved. Totally Indy 500, strong top end.. Pulled great when floored.
Although, FWD, the GM J-cars also got the 2.8 back in the 80's. I hate to admit, but I really like the 85 Olds Firenza Hatchback. Here's a concept vehicle built off of one:
Picture5.jpg
Picture5.jpg (188.32 KiB) Viewed 886 times

This engine I just bought is all-aluminum, DOHC-VVT, SFI, and RWD - 173 CI with 210 HP and 195 PF. The only thing in common with the 1980 2.8 is that they are both a 60-degree V-6.
X05PT_6C020-scaled.JPG
X05PT_6C020-scaled.JPG (86.34 KiB) Viewed 886 times

I still prefer the LQ1, but I couldn't pass up this deal. It looks much better WITHOUT that engine cover. I'll try to post some pictures of my engine - no cover, cool plenum( and miles of wiring ). Looks very much like that picture, though.
I am not even sure if I can ever get this running in an H-Body. But, I will try. If I can ever find the time.
First thing is to just figure out how to get it mounted. The low-mounted A/C compressor(easy to remove) and the alternator may not fit between the frame rails. The oil pan looks like a problem, too.
My odd-ball V-6 Astre won't start, so I may use it as a mule to test fit this engine. But, ultimately, the Astre is getting a Pontiac V-8.
User avatar
res0o7eb
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Near Seattle, WA

1977 Pontiac Sunbird Hatchback

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:07 pm

res0o7eb wrote:The engine I just bought is all-aluminum, DOHC-VVT, SFI, and RWD - 173 CI with 210 HP and 195 PF. The only thing in common with the 1980 2.8 is that they are both a 60-degree V-6.


Well, if that old basic 2.8 was any indication, the latest DOHC version must be a pretty nice engine.

Is it all aluminum? What does it weigh? Doesnt appear to be enough room for a timing belt to be hidden in that block...what drives the OHC's?

I think it will make a great swap... It will be super cool it will mate up to the factory V6 frame pads with an adapter plate of some sorts.

Cat wait to hear about how it fits.
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1978 Sunbird notchback 4cyl Auto
2006 Chevrolet Aveo 5 speed Hatchback
Yes, you can refer to me as Mark
Please visit my blog... http://chevymonza.blogspot.com/ Follow if you like!
Featuring special guests; Carl Beraytor and Ray D'atore

My Red spyder now has a youtube channel please Like and Subscribe!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOzzSR ... ISuing7KLA
User avatar
marco_1978_spyder
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 5241
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: Western, New YorK / Rochester

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby NixVegaGT » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:51 am

Dry weight of 370 lbs. is what a couple articles say. Not bad. A bit heavier than I expected by 20 lbs. or so. I wonder if it's in the accessories. Maybe ditching the AC would help that. Probably really great balance depending on engine placement. I bet you could put it pretty far back to get it behind the front wheel centerline. This would be a really cool swap; Just after the 301 stroker we were talking about, Tom. LOL. I'm still holding out hope that you'll get a chance to do that one.
- Nic '73 Vega GT "DogBoxx" Batwing LS1
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2357894
User avatar
NixVegaGT
 
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:24 am
Location: Minnesota

1973 Chevrolet Vega GT

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby res0o7eb » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:00 am

marco_1978_spyder wrote:
res0o7eb wrote:The engine I just bought is all-aluminum, DOHC-VVT, SFI, and RWD - 173 CI with 210 HP and 195 PF. The only thing in common with the 1980 2.8 is that they are both a 60-degree V-6.


Well, if that old basic 2.8 was any indication, the latest DOHC version must be a pretty nice engine.
Yes. Most people swap the 2.8 for a 3.1 or 3.4. But, in the 80's, a Citation X-11 Hatchback with a 2.8l and FI was a fairly good car, even though it is FWD. I like definitely like the style.
marco_1978_spyder wrote:Is it all aluminum? What does it weigh? Doesnt appear to be enough room for a timing belt to be hidden in that block...what drives the OHC's?
Yes, all aluminum - block, heads, cam carriers. In the picture of the engine, below the oil fill cap on the drivers side are two silver-colored bolts for a cover that goes over the cam sprockets and chain. The oil fill cap in the pictures is deceiving - it actually has a rearward jog in it below the plastic engine cover to an opening in the cam/valve cover.
marco_1978_spyder wrote:I think it will make a great swap... It will be super cool it will mate up to the factory V6 frame pads with an adapter plate of some sorts.

Cat wait to hear about how it fits.
It may be a while before it actually runs/drives the rear wheels of any vehicle. But, you nailed it, Marco - V-6 plates with some sort of spacer to mount this engine. The current engine mounts on the sides of the block allow the engine to just drop down on the frame rails similar to the Trans-Adapt front mounts on a SBC swap.

With all of the swaps I'd like to do, being able to use those V-6 plates for several different engines may allow me to scratch those itches in the same car without too much of a hassle.
User avatar
res0o7eb
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Near Seattle, WA

1977 Pontiac Sunbird Hatchback

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:12 pm

Thats cool that it uses a chain. Much less hassle than a Belt.

Wish my Aveo used a chain. I'm chainging the timing belt on it this weekend. I'm 4k miles over the recommended service interval. And there have been many reported early belt failures. And this is an interference engine.

Is this V6 an interference motor? Not that U have to worry about it with a chain drive.

370's pretty equal to a buick V6 in weight. Should make a great blend of handling and high revving power.

This could be a very good engine for this chassis....
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1978 Sunbird notchback 4cyl Auto
2006 Chevrolet Aveo 5 speed Hatchback
Yes, you can refer to me as Mark
Please visit my blog... http://chevymonza.blogspot.com/ Follow if you like!
Featuring special guests; Carl Beraytor and Ray D'atore

My Red spyder now has a youtube channel please Like and Subscribe!!!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOzzSR ... ISuing7KLA
User avatar
marco_1978_spyder
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 5241
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: Western, New YorK / Rochester

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby res0o7eb » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:20 pm

Not sure what interference means.
Belts are not a bad deal - just need good belts. Pontiac perfected the belt-driven camshaft with the 60's OHC-6 and GM used the same thing in the Vega. I don't recall any problems with belts on these two engines.

The 370-pound weight of the DOHC V-6 includes EVERYTHING you see in that picture (as installed). Fairly sure that other engine weights don't include the 'peripherals'.
Still, I am amazed at the low weight of the Buick V-6(and 350 V-8).
Strange that Jeff Smith said the Buick V-6 was 'heavy' in the early 80's Car Craft buildup of the yellow V-6 Vega. I think it was a Buick?
User avatar
res0o7eb
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Near Seattle, WA

1977 Pontiac Sunbird Hatchback

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby ck_carnut » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:48 pm

Interference means that if your timing belt (or chain) breaks, the pistons will hit any open valves. :shock:
My fleet:
'75 Cosworth Vega #1103
'77 MG Midget
'91 BMW 318is (the next project)
'00 Ranger (Parts hauler and occasional tow rig)
'09 WRX (her DD)
User avatar
ck_carnut
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: New Jersey

1975 Chevrolet Vega Cosworth

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby BillPappy » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:40 am

I been away for a few weeks .. I was surprized to see this (60-degree V-6 Swap) Still going strong..

But anyways Im glad it still is.

The reason I been away is .I got a Fiero.. With a blown 60-degree V-6 Blown as in (Rod sticking out the side of the block) Grins

Being the person I am.. Im not happy with just repacing the 2.8. with a 2.8.

I am useing a 4.9 V8 out of 93 Caddy De-ville. In turns out.. The the Caddy engine and trans is just a few pounds heavier then the old
2.8 and trans.. Best part is ..its a 60-degree V-8 Could be made to run with a carb. I am useing a the caddy ECM
The caddy 4.9 really is kind of weak on the HP side. Heads dont flow very good at all. But I been driveing the caddy De-ville around
I will be real happy with the Swap.

I had many thing to choose from. the 3800 SC Would also be a sweet engine. True the starter needs to be drilled out and tapped for
RWD.

I think the biggest thing would be oil pan and engine mounts..

You guys want to do some real hard core reading and cram your head with lots of info

Look at the Pennock's Fiero Forum / The Construction Zone

Please dont get me wrong here.Im not saying this forum is not amazing.

But the fab work some of theses guys do just blows my mind..
It's hard for an old street racer to stay on the safe side of stupid

Pappy
User avatar
BillPappy
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:35 am

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby NixVegaGT » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:50 am

I think the 4100 design is great. I think they just didn't support it well enough in the transition from design to production. It's got a crank housing and separate cylinder banks. That's pretty cool. Just like the Merlin V12 from the P51 mustang. I built one of those with the company I worked with back in '88 called JRS enterprises. It was for a Reno racer. Coool prototype P51 clone. We made 4200hp. FUN.

We should start a thread about the 60º V8! There has to be guys building them.
- Nic '73 Vega GT "DogBoxx" Batwing LS1
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2357894
User avatar
NixVegaGT
 
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:24 am
Location: Minnesota

1973 Chevrolet Vega GT

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby res0o7eb » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:28 am

Definitely agree with you on those Fiero gearheads. :)

But, I don't agree with you that the Cadillac 4.9 V-8 is a 60-degree Vee.
Neither does this Fiero site: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49b.html
You would have to split the crankshaft rod journals to make it an even-fire.
This is a similar problem with the 90-degree V-6 - no split journals = odd-fire, split journals = even-fire.

Still, a unique swap. Go for it. 8)
User avatar
res0o7eb
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Near Seattle, WA

1977 Pontiac Sunbird Hatchback

Re: 60-degree V-6 Swap

Postby BillPappy » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:41 pm

res0o7eb Let me restate that the Caddy is a 60-degree Vee.. :P

Only that it wil bolt to a trans that is from a 60-degree engine.

Yea there is a few thats been trying to build up the 4.9 With fare out comes.

There is a link in the other forum where a guy is rebiulding a 4.9 Doing everything right for HP.
But it still not really there. But 4.9 got torque out the a$$

There is also a link where a Northstar was built.

I feel kind of bad. Feel like Im am Pushing that forum. But Im not. Im pushing what I learned from that
forum.
It's hard for an old street racer to stay on the safe side of stupid

Pappy
User avatar
BillPappy
 
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:35 am

PreviousNext

Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

     
cron