Buick V8 in an H body?

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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby skierkaj » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:53 pm

The 455's are: 30" long (water pump pulley flange to rear casting)and 24" wide (valve cover to valve cover). The 350's are 27" long (water pump pulley flange to rear casting) and 23" wide (valve cover to valve cover). At least that's the best I can tell with a tape measure and my calibrated eyeball. All the other information I've found on the net is WRONG. Sorry for the confusion.

As far as a 231 vs a 350, I don't have the measurements; the 231 is in my Roadhawk, and it's dark out.
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby skierkaj » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:08 pm

Well, I would've measured the 231 this morning, but it's raining out. Much to the dismay of others, and possibly myself, I will be transplanting a Buick 350 into my Roadhawk. It's not selling, so I might as well enjoy it. Don't worry guys, I won't be doing anything that isn't reversible in the future.
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby NixVegaGT » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:03 pm

If it is the same length it's got to be in the front cover section because it HAS to be longer through the cylinders. The 350 is 3.8" bore and the 455 is 4.3125"… So it's got to make up for about 1.5" difference in length there. That's a lot.
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby res0o7eb » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:11 pm

NixVegaGT wrote:If it is the same length it's got to be in the front cover section because it HAS to be longer through the cylinders. The 350 is 3.8" bore and the 455 is 4.3125"… So it's got to make up for about 1.5" difference in length there. That's a lot.
Depends on the bore SPACING - doesn't it? Does a head for a Buick 350 fit on a Buick 455 block? If so, then the bore SPACING is the same and the bore DIAMETER shouldn't be a factor in the length of each engine. Or am I missing something?
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby Sunula66 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:20 am

Sorry for chimin' in so late , just wanted to put this out there as the big block guys all know.....We put a 455 Gold Olds in my 67 Pontiac Beaumont Wagooon! It flew! frame cars and never hurt it] The 455 Olds blocks have a very wide angle and fit snug in chevelles and the mid size cutlass's and have gobs o' torque, but I think the Buick 455 and Pontiac blue blocks and chev's [also torquey critters] were a lesser "angle" meaning the "V" is narrower on the Buick??!!Anyone else? Just a heads up to other problems...My 64 409 2x4 fit in my Beaumont Sport Deluxe real nice 'cause it was shorter due to the "W" shaped heads. But weighed a friggin' ton! I put the "Rat" motor back in it after it was rebuilt and sold the 409 to a flip front ended Camaro..It twisted the tube frame and the doors wouldn't close anymore! :P He Sold it too! The 409 went A/Altered [alcohol] and blew up on it's 2nd pass...hit the wall and grenaded the tow truck!! :shock: Big Blocks are fun but frame connectors are made to support yer ass!! There is a newer post with a Buick 350 and it is awesome, good luck and play safe..Ron.. I should start a new post in "off topic" .." The Revenge of The 409 :evil: "... :lol:
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby res0o7eb » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:19 pm

Those GM V-8s are all a 90 Vee - none truly have a 'narrower Vee'. What makes one engine 'wider' than another is the deck height - the distance from the centerline of the crankshaft to the deck surface (where the head sits on the block).
The Buick 455 probably has a higher deck height than a Buick 350, therefore the 455 is 'wider'.
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby patrick1151 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:29 pm

Here is a 455 FS for $200 in the Seattle area.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/1321534571.html
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby NixVegaGT » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:47 am

Damn, they look so similar to the 350. Same looking valve cover. I really wonder what the size is now!
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby res0o7eb » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:41 am

Here's a link to Hutch's thread on swapping a Buick 350 into a Buick Roadhawk: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27856
As mentioned in the thread above, I will post any updates in this thread. My plan is/was to test fit the installation of a Buick 350 into my Astre when I pull the Buick V-6 out of it prior to a Pontiac V-8 swap.
But, I may pull the Buick V-6 in my Monza Spyder instead and do the Buick V-8 swap just to corroborate what Hutch demonstrated - that a Buick 350 V-8 in a H-Body is truly an easy 350 V-8 swap.

So, the 1972 350 Buick V-8 engine(and TH350 transmission) I purchased last year is in my garage now. I have it all torn down. It is well used, but looks like a good rebuilder. Even with a cover on it, some water did get into one of the cylinders after sitting outside this winter.
In the pic below, I do believe that is the correct exhaust manifold needed to clear the steering shaft. Also, the stock, shallow oil pan just might clear the steering linkage with no modifications.
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby monzajer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:14 am

Hey gang, here is one thread that has a dimension chart for engines:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29667&p=161482&hilit=engine+dimensions#p161482

I know there is another thread that has this info set-up a little different, but the above link should suffice.

cheers jer :mrgreen:
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby skierkaj » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:56 am

Guys/Gals,

I know I'm not the first person to attempt this. I know others have done it before. If you want more information, just send me an email;

johnskierka@yahoo.com

So far, the exhaust manifold looks correct for the swap. In order to get the oil pan to clear, you should need a spacer underneath the motor mount. about a 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch is all you need.
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby HI WINDING MONZA » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:40 am

From a friend who's buddy did the swap years ago:

Hi Doug,

It was a 350 buick. Stock V-6 mount, stock exh manifolds, moved steering column over a tad. Stock oil pan. Can't remember what rad. It was a '70 LaSabre engine with just a cam. Went right at 13 flat with 2.93 gears, later went 12.7s with 3.73s and some more work.

They are a nice torque engine, long rods, long stroke. Flat tops made for 231s fit for higher compression.

Dave



Doug in Az 8)
My Old Cadillac Powered Monza Still Lives...........now on its 5th owner!..........Somewhere ?

The 90's just keep rollin' along........
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1992 Pontiac Sunbird Coupe 2.0 OHC MPFI I4 TH125C 143k miles
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby HI WINDING MONZA » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:46 am

Also a note , some 70's era Buick 350 heads are prone to cracking....... BEWARE!

Almost picked up 2 350's for $75 off Craigslist till I read that somewhere :rolleyes:


Doug in Az 8)
My Old Cadillac Powered Monza Still Lives...........now on its 5th owner!..........Somewhere ?

The 90's just keep rollin' along........
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1992 Pontiac Sunbird Coupe 2.0 OHC MPFI I4 TH125C 143k miles
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby HI WINDING MONZA » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:03 am

More Info on Buick 350's..........from a Buick forum

Re: 350 block differences?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The later engines are lower compression however this can be easily changed with some head milling, block decking or a piston swap. The 73-80 engines have the stronger capscrew style connecting rods, betting oiling system ect.... Many of the later engines have the oversized exhaust valves and heads that are less prone to cracking.
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My Old Cadillac Powered Monza Still Lives...........now on its 5th owner!..........Somewhere ?

The 90's just keep rollin' along........
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1992 Pontiac Sunbird Coupe 2.0 OHC MPFI I4 TH125C 143k miles
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Re: Buick V8 in an H body?

Postby HI WINDING MONZA » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:09 am

From the H.A.M.B. :

This one is for C9 and the maybe three other folks here who already know about the unsung lightweight hero of the smog motor era...the Buick 350. (And for others who are interested, naturally!).

Available from 1968 to 1980 in various Buick models, the 350 engine (or 'small block' as many call it) was a modern, overhead valve engine designed to replace the nailhead as the company's base V8 engine. The factory produced both two and four barrel versions of this engine, and it was also loaned out to AMC for use in some of it's Jeep models.

Looking much like it's bigger 455 brother, the 350 Buick can be quickly separated from it's Pontiac and Oldsmobile 350 cousins by noting that the distributor is in the front of the engine at an angle. Cylinder numbering is the same as a small block Chevy with odd numbered cylinders on the left (driver's side) bank and evens on the right (passenger's side) bank. Firing order is the standard 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 for the Buick 350 and the distributor rotates in a clockwise direction.

The odd thing about the Buick 350 is that it is nearly a perfect 'square' engine, featuring a 3.800" bore and a 3.850" stroke from the factory. This gives the engine a nice, flat torque curve, but hampers any screaming, high rpm dreams you may have had for this particular mill! Still, it is a great performer if built to the conservative side, allowing it to take full advantage of it's natural low and mid-range capabilities.

Other specs for this engine include a main journal diameter of 2.9995" and a rod journal size of 2.0000" with between .0004" and .0015" clearance called for on the mains and .0002" and .0023" on the rods. End play should fall between .003" and .009" on the crank, with thrust on #3.

These engines were a product of the smog era, and as such, they saw compression drops throughout the 70s. They held at 8.5:1 up until 1975, when factory specs dropped to 8.0:1 for the remaining span of the engine's production. This makes them excellent performers on low octane pump gas, and works well for a daily driver, but to wring any serious performance out of them will require a piston swap or some minor cutting on the decks or cylinder heads to acheive a more robust, yet still streetable compression ratio of around 9.0:1 or 9.5:1. Any more than that is really too much for a street engine relying on questionable quality fuel from random service stations!!

Crane Cams offers several hydraulic grinds, and one solid lifter grind for the Buick 350 engine. Here are the part numbers and specs, starting from mildest and working up from there.

Part # 710511
Duration @ .050 = 194 I/202 E
Advertised Duration = 252 I/260 E
Lobe Separation = 112
Gross Lift = .400 I/.416 E

Part # 710531
Duration @ .050 = 202 I/210 E
Advertised Duration = 260 I/268 E
Lobe Separartion = 112
Gross Lift = .416 I/.432 E

Part # 710571
Duration @ .050 = 218 I/226 E
Advertised Duration = 276 I/284 E
Lobe Separation = 112
Gross Lift = .448 I/.464 E

Part # 710631
Duration @ .050 = 226 I/234 E
Advertised Duration = 284 I/292 E
Lobe Separation = 110
Gross Lift = .464 I/.480 E

Part # 711161 (solid)
Duration @ .050 = 238
Advertised Duration = 304
Lobe Separartion = 108
Lash (hot) = .022
Gross Lift = .512

Note that the solid lifter cam is a 'square pattern' grind. Solid cams can be 'tuned' somewhat by experimenting with different valve lashes within a given range, so that this cam can be effectively run as a dual pattern cam to some degree with slight changes in the lash setting between the intake and exhaust valves. Not really an issue, as I doubt that anyone who isn't trying to build an all-out racing version of the Buick 350 would go down this road!

I used an earlier version of the 710571 hydraulic grind in my ex-wife's 350 engine and it worked out well with the stock intake, a Carter AFB, recurved HEI distributor and dual exhaust. It had a nice lope to it and really came on strong in the 2200-5000rpm range...making her old sled get up and boogie, much to her delight!

(The lopey idle also attracted curious glances from guys driving musclecars and hot rods!)

Swapping in a performance cam is just as simple on a 350 Buick engine as it is on nearly any other. There are some funky nylon rocker arm retainers that you will have to pop out with a screwdriver to pull the rockers off, however. I was able to re-use mine, but they DO become brittle with age and should be replaced if they crack or look suspect. Just something to be mindfull of.

The stock 4v factory intake works okay on a street engine tailored for mild performance useage, but it is a heavy cast iron sumbitch! The best game in town by FAR is the 350 Stage 1 aluminum dual plane intake manifold available from TA Performance for the Buick 350. It works well up to 7200 rpm, which is more than most semi-stockers will see. (455 intakes will NOT fit a 350, by the way!). TA Performance also offers several performance cam grinds for the underdog Buick motor, and they are currently the leader in supplying parts and knowledge for these engines.

Check out TA Performance at :

http://www.taperformance.com/

Headers for a rod or custom application are likely going to fall to something home-built starting with a flange made from an exhaust manifold gasket...but the 68-72 Skylark manifolds work okay for a mild application. (That's what I used on my ex's car...a buddy had dropped a 455 into his 71 Skylark, and I got the old 350 manifolds for free!).

Yes, the Buick 350 is a rather obscure oddity...but that's part of it's charm! If you're looking for a cheap, lightweight powerplant to move your project down the road, you may want to consider one of these long stroke small blocks! Manual and automatic trannys will work, and any B-O-P pattern TH350 or TH400 will work with your favorite converter, shift kit, etc. I know manual transmissions were available behind the 350 Buick in Jeep applications at least, so with a little parts scrounging, you can run a stick shift behind one of these engines.

(I seem to recall a friend's neighbor owning an early 70s Buick Apollo with a 350 and a 'three on the tree'...but I can't be sure now...that was well over 20 years ago!)

So...the 'secret' is out!! Buick 350 "small block" engines make interesting alternatives to the more common fodder, and offer decent performance in a reliable and lightweight package with the distributor up front to make firewall issues simpler for anyone considering a swap.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug in Az 8)
My Old Cadillac Powered Monza Still Lives...........now on its 5th owner!..........Somewhere ?

The 90's just keep rollin' along........
1990 Chevrolet Silverado Regular Cab Long Bed 350 TBI V8 700R4 105k miles
1992 Pontiac Sunbird Coupe 2.0 OHC MPFI I4 TH125C 143k miles
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