Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

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Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:03 pm

Numerous times I have emailed champion radiator asking why they do not sell a replacement radiator for v6/v8 monza applications. Today I got an immediate response. They said that it is on their list but they need a samples and details about fitment.

("Hello David. This is Matt, I'm in charge of product development. We have that part on my "list" of product to develop but it is far down the list. Also I do not have a good sample yet and the radiators that have been sent to me do not match what I see are in cars. I have not done the research yet to understand what radiator goes in that car. When the time comes can I contact you for the info. Or can you send me a picture of the radiator right now?")
matt at championcooling dot com

Other than used, and the occasional nos that shows up on ebay, griffin is the only option. Griffen doesn't even list the monza radiators on their site anymore. Summit says unavailable. Anyway, I for one would like a lower cost alternative to the griffin radiators. The vast majority of people are unwilling to spent the amount required to get the griffin radiator. If Champion is willing to take the time to develop a drop in (or nearly drop in) replacement we should work with them.

What do people want :
2 core straight neck
3 core straight neck
2 core curved neck
3 core curved neck
monza 4cyl radiator appears to already be available from champion
vega 4cyl radiator also appears to be available from champion. This is also listed as v8 vega but the curved lower outlet in my opinion should be straight.

Is a 2 core radiator going to be something anyone wants ( maybe stock replacement)

A 3 core radiator with a curved neck would be of use to people with stock small blocks and power steering.
a 3 core radiator with a straight neck would work for any v6, v8 without power steering or an lsx application.

I think that every effort should be made to ensure a factory shroud will fit.

I don't have a curved neck radiator to ship them as a sample, only the straight neck type.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby cjbiagi » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:26 pm

David, I assume these are aluminum? If so they probably use wider tubes (1"?) so a 2 row is as good or better than a 3 or 4 row copper/brass. You need to be aware of the total thickness as clearance can become a issue particularly with V8 cars. I have the Griffin 2 row with 1" tubes in my car and the total thickness is as much as I could fit. So, I would ask what size tubes they use and go from there. I have been very happy with the Griffin "drop in" radiator in my car but as you mentioned they are pricey. I would think we may need a couple versions because of all the variability in engines and accesories. WIth a V8 and power steering you pretty much need the curved upper neck or the inlet will run directly into the power steering pump.
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:41 pm

I've got 3 or 4 old Monza radiators (2 and 3 core) in the garage I can pull out. If I need to ship them as samples I suppose I could do that too. I don't need them any more as I bought the Griffin radiator years ago when the H-body group got together and created a discounted synergy.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:32 pm

The factory brochure mentions a heavy duty cooling option. Was this just for thr 4cyl?
http://oldcarbrochures.org/NA/Chevrolet ... 5-Monza-10

I see no mention of a heavy duty radiator for a v8 in the gm parts catalog only 4cyl.
http://gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=12232
http://gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=12233

I know I have 2 and 3 row radiators but nowhere do I see mention of a heavy duty radiator for a v8 even with ac. I think there may have been either a change made by Gm or the aftermarket where 3 rows were manufactured. I do not have radiators in front of me but I think the 2 row radiator I have has wider rows than the 3 row radiator although I believe overall the 3 row is slightly wider and may offer added cooling capacity. Any opinions.

There are separate part numbers for v8 coupe and v8 hatch radiators. I did a google image search and the only possible explanation for needing a different part would be a possible difference in the angle of the curved neck. The coupe radiator neck appears to not curve upwards as much as the hatch version. This was possibly needed to clear the redesigned hood/ front fascia. Opinions?
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:55 pm

I have both. One Radiator has a larger capacity inlet side tank . The other does not.
I know I've had the best luck with the larger tank radiators.

No pics but I have both versions in the shop on the shelf needing a recore or recycling.
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1978 Sunbird notchback 4cyl Auto
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:22 pm

Yeah, I have seen the larger capacity tank but I am not convinced that is the difference. Why would the coupe require a redesigned side tank. the gm parts manual specifically mentions coupe and hatch applications.
I think the difference in end tanks is just an aftermarket vs factory thing. Do both of the radiators you are referencing have the curved neck. The factory ones I have with the curved neck have the larger tank. The aftermarket ones I have with the straight neck have the narrower tank.
this is from bob gumms site (scroll down) text indicates it is from a coupe and it has the large tank.
http://v8monza.com/
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:52 pm

This is what I have so far for Champion Radiator

In 1975 when the Monza was introduced only the 2+2 hatchback was available. This is the 4

headlight 2+2 euro looking rubber nose car. Originally the car was meant to be the showcase for

GM's rotary engine. Ed Cole was the head of GM and he viewed the rotary engine as the engine

of the future. To keep the rotors seals lubricated GM was planning on injecting oil with the fuel

into the motor. Normal oil consumption was to be a quart per 1000 miles. When the EPA came out

with its emissions regulations for 1975 the engine couldn't meet the standard. Also mileage

wasn't the greatest either which became an issue after the first oil embargo. The rotary engine

got postponed and when Ed Cole retired the program was scrapped.
The Monza was based on a modified Vega chassis. The last minute solution for a powertrain

was to use the Vega 4cyl as the base motor and an optional 262cu small block. I guess GM was

reasoning that a small v8 would equal better mileage and emissions. The small bore used in the

engine caused the valves to be shrouded. Fuel entering the engine instead of swirling into the

cylinder would hit the cylinder wall and fall out of suspension. Mileage sucked and the engine

while meeting federal emissions did not meet California emissions. In 1975 if you ordered a

Monza with a v8 in California you got a 350 2 barrel and an automatic. For 1976 GM developed

the 305 which was phased in nationwide. Also Buick had the Skyhawk and Oldsmobile had the

Starfire. Both had the new v6 (which was a cast iron engine based off the aluminum v8 (minus 2

cylinders) that GM was using in the 60's). Pontiac did not come out with the Sunbird until 1976.

the Sunbird was available in a coupe or hatchback. In mid 1975 the Monza was available as a

coupe with metal bumpers and different nose.
If not confusing enough when the Vega was dropped from the lineup abruptly after 1977, GM

was left with an inventory of unfinished bodies and parts. The Vega hatchback was given a

slightly different nose and renamed the Monza S. the Vega wagon was given the same front end

treatment and remaned the Monza wagon. Pontiac Sunbird was also available around 1978 as a

wagon. These are just renamed Vega's but a v6 was available engine, something that never came

in a Vega. These cars never got the redesigned radiator core support for the larger Monza

radiator. With regard to radiators The Monza S and Monza/Sunbird wagon use the same radiator

as a vega. I will address these cars separately later.
When I refer to Monza I am I am referring to the Monza, Skyhawk, Starfire and Sunbird

excluding the Monza S and Monza/Sunbird wagon. 4cyl cars got a narrower core. I believe you

make a replacement for this radiator. The v6 and v8 got the wider core and were available in 2

and 3 row. The v6 radiator had the neck coming straight out towards the engine. The v8 ( to

clear the power steering pump pulley) had a curved neck.
Factory part manuals do not show a heavy duty cooling option for a v6 or v8. There was a

heavy duty cooling option for the 4cyl. I know I have 2 row and 3 row radiators using stock

tanks. I do not have them in front of me but I believe the 2 row has wider rows. The 3 row I

believe is overall wider and may add additional cooling capacity. This may have a been a Gm or

aftermarket design change to address the cooling problems with a v8 - they always seem to run

hot. Im my opinion there just isn't enough room in the engine compartment for the air to move

around the engine. I have spoken with a few people that have done ls engine swaps using stock

radiators and none have had any cooling issues.

These are the dimensions for replacement radiators that are no longer manufactured by spectra

premium

cu533 - straight neck
(v6 radiator can be used with a v8 without power steering or without aftermaket alternator

mounting system positioning alternator on driver side - factory v8 alternator mounting is to

passenger side or on top center with ac)
Core Material: Copper
Tank Material: Brass
Flow Type: Crossflow
Row No.: 3
Core Height: 20 3/8 (width?)
Core Width: 14 5/8 (height?)
Core Depth: 1 1/2
Tube No.: 0
Tube Size: 0,375
Fin Length: 0,5000
Fin Per Inch: 15
Inlet Header: 2 3/4 x 16 1/2
Outlet Header: 2 3/4 x 16 1/2
Inlet: 1 1/2
Outlet: 1 1/2
EOC: None
TOC: 8 1/2 ( Concentric )
Mounting: Saddle Mount


cu467 - curved neck
(v8 with power steering has curved neck need for factory power steering or other drivers side

mounted accessory)
Core Material: Copper
Tank Material: Brass
Flow Type: Crossflow
Row No.: 2
Core Height: 20 3/8 (width?)
Core Width: 14 5/8 (height?)
Core Depth: 1 1/4
Tube No.: 0
Tube Size: 0,500
Fin Per Inch: 14
Inlet Header: 2 3/4 x 16 1/2
Outlet Header: 2 3/4 x 16 1/2
Inlet: 1 1/2
Outlet: 1 1/2
EOC: None
TOC: 8 1/2 ( Concentric )
Mounting: Top/Bottom Cradle

cu462
( 4cyl application) - I believe you already sell a replacement for this radiator
Construction: Brass Tank/Copper Core
Core Width (In): 12 Inch
Core Height (In): 14-3/8 Inch
Core Depth (In): 1 Inch
Number Of Rows: 2
Inlet Hose Diameter (In): 1-1/4 Inch
Outlet Hose Diameter (In): 1-1/2 Inch
Inlet Hose Diameter (mm): 31.75mm
Mount Type: Saddle
Engine Oil Cooler Included: No
Transmission Oil Cooler Included: Yes

I believe you already sell a replacement for the 4cyl monza radiator so I am not going to

address it. I see radiatrs on ebay labeled silla but they are fabricated like yours?
There is a need for the curved neck v8 radiator and the straight neck v6 radiator. Presently

there is no viable option for a direct replacement. You would have the market covered - albeit it

is a small market as most of the cars have been crushed. But at the price point of your radiators

even people looking for a stock replacement would likely buy your radiator. Griffin is the only

firm to offer a direct replacement but it is in the $550 - $650 range.
The drivers side tank on the v6/v8 radiator is narrower at the bottom to clear the frame rail.
A coolant level temperature is on the passenger side tank approximately halfway down.
In my opinion the nipple for the overflow should angle 45 degrees toward the passenger side.
Some cars have the coolant recovery tank on the passenger side. Other cars have the coolant

recovery tank on the drivers side and a hose loops over the top of the radiator hold down.
I noticed that there are different factory part numbers for cars with the 2+2 rubber euro style

front end and the later metal bumper front end. The 2+2 was the original design offered with a v8.

When the Monza coupe was introduce it had metal bumpers and a redesign front fascia. I believe

the hoodline is slightly lower in the area of the upper radiator hose on the coupe. As a result, the

neck is curved slightly more downward for clearance. There would not be a need for two

different part numbers just make them all like the coupe version as it will still fit the 2+2

hatchback.
I can say that there is very little clearance around the factory end tanks. With the fabricated

tanks you are using, if you make the tanks the same width as the stock tanks there will likely be

interference due to the squared off edges. Make the tanks slightly narrower or slightly \_/

shaped.
A drain cock should be on the bottom of the passenger side tank. Would a transmission cooler

be included?

here are some links to check out

griffin radiators
http://www.v8monza.com/catalog/scripts/ ... iators.htm

stock radiator text indicates it is from a coupe ( click on faq to left then scroll down)
http://v8monza.com/
Last edited by monzaaddict on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:32 pm

Could the difference between the coupe and fastback radiators have been the position of the nipple for the coolant tank? The fastback had the coolant tank on the drivers side. When the coupe came out the coolant tank was moved to the passenger side. I see radiators with the overflow nipple in various positions. I would think the nipple would have to be towards the passenger side for the passenger side coolant tank. If it were facing forward or slightly towards the drivers side the coolant hose would likely have to loop in front of radiator and be very close to the ac compressor pulley or the non ac alternator pulley.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:17 pm

Isn't RPO 'V01' for the heavy duty radiator option? I'll see if I can find one on a V6/ V8 build sheet.

Seems the differences in radiators would be like you said:

the difference in angle of the overflow outlet.

Auto trans cooler or not.

Curved or straight inlt (v8 PS vs non v8 PS cars)

And heavy duty or not heavy duty.
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1978 Sunbird notchback 4cyl Auto
2006 Chevrolet Aveo 5 speed Hatchback
Yes, you can refer to me as Mark
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:30 pm

I agree there was an option listed as heavy duty radiator but when you go to the parts catalog there is only a listing for a h.d. radiator for the 4cyl. I think that if you had ac or ordered the hd radiator option with a v8 you got the extra fan in front of the condenser or in later cars you got the thermostatic clutch fan. On v6 cars I have seen a shroud.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:52 pm

https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/docs/g ... -Monza.pdf

go to page 25. there is not indication that a v8 ever had a larger radiator available. The 4cyl and 6cyl could be had with the larger v8 radiator. a clutch fan was part of the ac package.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:56 am

It's my assumption that a larger radiator would not fit with a V8. With my V8, the clutch fan was only a 1/2" away from the factory 2-core radiator. I also had A/C & curiously my '78 didn't come with the auxiliary fan in front of the radiator. When I switched to a 3-core radiator, I had to remove the clutch fan & replace it with a shallow profile flex fan. To mount the flex fan I installed a 1" spacer I had custom-honed to accommodate the larger H-body water pump pilot. After all that I still only had roughly 1/2"-3-4" of clearance.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:20 am

I searched for some info and came up with nothing on topic, but here's a cooling tid bit... the 1978 monza's used almost exactly 3 gallons of coolant. some a tiny bit more some a tiny bit less....

the cars with the greatest capacity had..

A manual transmission, A/C , high alt emis. or calif emis. 3.20 gallon.
and in an auto and it was 3.18 probably due to the tranny cooler

the lowest capacity had an auto tranny, no A/C,and federal emissions.

For 1978 I have buildsheet examples of 4 6 and 8 cyl with V01 heavy duty radiator RPO.
I dont think that was a thicker core... I think the drivers side tank was larger
1978 Monza Spyder V8 4speed, posi
1978 Sunbird Formula V6, 5 Speed, Hatchback
1978 Sunbird notchback 4cyl Auto
2006 Chevrolet Aveo 5 speed Hatchback
Yes, you can refer to me as Mark
Please visit my blog... http://chevymonza.blogspot.com/ Follow if you like!
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby cjbiagi » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:52 pm

When the front end nose was redesigned in 1978 there was additional clearance for the radiator I believe. My 75 has the fixed 7 blade fan with no clutch or spacer and I have hardly any clearance between the fan and radiator, maybe 1/2". The fact that later cars used a clutch (or spacer as Ken did) proves that there is more clearance in later cars. This is why I suggested being very careful with regards to overall thickness and the number of rows. There is no way I could fit the Griffin "600 hp" version because that one uses two 1 1/4" tubes which adds another 1/2" to the core thickness. That would put my clearance (and I assume all V8 cars from 75-77) at next to nothing. So, I would suggest following the Griffin 400hp version with two 1" tubes and the curved neck for V8 cars as most likely most of them have power steering. Griffin allowed you to choose the orientation of the overflow tube, with or without trans cooler, with or without the fitting for the coolant sensor etc. Champion could also easily put the inlet tube in either the straight or curved position I would think as the basic radiator is the same.
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Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:02 pm

Marco or Ken, do you have curved neck radiators with and without the larger tank? I have curved neck
radiators with the larger tank ( also all examples of curved neck radiators I see online have the
large tank). The straight neck radiators all have the smaller tank. I believe the larger tank is
because the curved neck is entering from the top. The griffin as well as other aftermarket
radiators I have do not have a wider tank.

-Should Champion incorporate the wider tank in a replacement?

Also the GM parts catalog is replacement parts which may not exactly match what was on the car
from the factory. For instance, there is no differentiation made with regard to whether the car is
auto or manual. All replacement radiators have the cooler whereas to increase new car profits the
cooler is deleted from the factory on manual cars.

-Should the cooler be included? It also could be used as a power steering cooler or blocked off.

Any agreement on what the difference is that requires a different part number for sport vs non
sport front end. Is it the position of the nipple for the coolant recovery tank? If the nipple is
angled towards the drivers side and a passenger side coolant recovery tank is used the loop in
front of the radiator might interfere with the pulley on ac compressor or alternator for non ac
cars. If the nipple is towards the passenger side the loop will still be in front of the radiator with a
drivers side coolant recovery tank but the clamps that the hose goes through on the shroud will
keep the loop from contacting any pulley.

Is the angle of the curved neck different on account of different hoodline? I have been looking at pictures online of original cars and can't definitively say yes or no.

- Should the nipple be towards the passenger side?

-The drain should be located in the exact factory spot. I have had fabricated radiators where the drain was randomly placed and it hit the core support and could not be opened through the hole in the support.

-The coolant level sensor bung should be included.

-The curved neck is necessary for a v8 with power steering or aftermarket brackets that mount accessories on the drivers side

-The straight neck would work for all other applications including ls engine swaps.

-Also, how much room is there around the stock end tanks. Anyone think that fabricated tanks with squared edges will interfere with the stock core support. I had this problem but the radiator was much thicker than stock.

-Should they have an option of a thicker than stock core similar to the 600hp model offered by griffin. I would imagine a note would be included any listing that clearance issues may arise with stock fan.

-Is there any reason to have a core narrow enough to use a stock clutch fan. Like Ken said I remember my brothers clutch fan equipped 77 Monza would not accept a thicker aftermarket core. Replacements for the fan are non existent so is it even an issue.

Any consensus on any of these points?
Last edited by monzaaddict on Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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