Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby cjbiagi » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:22 pm

Just to clarify, the additional rows or wider tubes makes the core "thicker", not wider. The width is pretty much determined by the core support/frame. Just a matter of terminology to keep things clear. Does Champion have any problem making two or 3 different versions all off of the same basic radiator? Once the basic radiator is made it's simple to change the overflow nipple direction or the inlet tube position depending upon application.
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
User avatar
cjbiagi
 
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:37 pm
Location: Glenwood, Illinois

1975 Chevrolet Monza


Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:24 pm

I have to dig out my parts book to verify the different core supports. If they were going to redesign the core support to fit a larger radiator why not move it even further forward and use a standard clutch fan instead of one so short as well as a 3 core radiator. The bolts were actually captured by the hub- you could not remove the bolts they were installed before the hub and clutch were assembled. I know my brothers 77 v8 with ac had the clutch fan and a 2 row radiator. The first replacement radiator did not fit and had to be reordered. Also Ken said he had the same problem and his is a 78. I remember thinking the core was really thin and couldn't be correct. I also remember the fin count seem less than other radiators I have seen. I found this on another site and believe the persons observations to be correct.



I was searching the internet trying to find the width of a Vega rear end and came upon this article concerning the v8 Vega swap and over heating. Did the Monza really have a special higher flow water pump with a smaller pulley? I thought I would list the article, thought someone might be able to use the info.............

The solution is to block the thermostat bypass opening on the water pump and add (2) 1/8" vent holes in the Robertshaw 330-160 (160°) thermostat.

Additionally, 3 and 4 row radiators will not help to cool these engines because there is no room to place an adequate fan behind the radiator. The solution here is a 15"x21" V8 Monza 2 Row Radiator with a constant-pitch Monza 7 Blade Engine Driven Fan resting inside a V6 Pontiac Sunbird Radiator Shroud.

The only modification required when using these parts is the construction of a pair of drop brackets to lower the stock vega radiator mounting points 3" overall. Everything else is a bolt-in affair.

I thought I would also mention that many people overlook the success of the V8 Monza when trying to address their own cooling system problems.

V8 Monza's had a unique 'short' water pump with a high-flow impeller that differs from the standard GM Short (Early) Water Pump.

V8 Monza's also used a special water pump pulley that was over 2" smaller in diameter than the crankshaft pulley to speed up coolant flow and cooling fan rpm.

Another lesson to be learned from the V8 Monza is radiator surface area. So many V8 Vega's I see suffer from overheating problems and in almost every case, a 3 or 4 row radiator is used with a very dense (14-16 fins per inch) fin count.

While high fin counts do offer more contact area, they are also more restrictive to airflow and more susceptable to plugging with debris.

The V8 Monza with A/C used a 2 row radiator with a very 'loose' fin count to promote airflow. The main reason for the thinner 2 row core was it allowed room to install a very large 7 blade (17") fixed-pitch cooling fan.

Most V8 Monza's did not have a fan shroud and only those with 'Heavy-Duty Cooling' were so equipped.

In short, many enthusiasts overlook these simple, proven techniques successfully employed by GM Engineers in the construction of the V8 Monza.

http://t.gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=95634
http://www.gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=78472
monzaaddict
 
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:16 pm

I am not sure if champion would be building these radiators on an individual basis or having stock readily available.

If each radiator is custom ordered then things that would need to be specified could include:

-curved or straight neck
-inlet outlet diameters. I know I have seen aftermarket radiators that have a neck down outlet that could be cut back for use on applications with a larger hose.
-overflow nipple orientation for a v8 ( on a v6 or 4cyl this is a non issue) clearance issue with pulley on v8's with ac compressor or alternator pulley on non ac cars. More correctly the important thing is where the overflow tank is mounted (passenger or drivers side as hose will loop in front of radiator if nipple faces opposite direction of where coolant recovery tank is located).
-core thickness 4cyl, v6, v8, higher hp v8. I am including a link to the griffin radiator options on v8monza.com. champion can interpret the core thicknesses etc, as they see fit.
-bung for coolant level should be included.
-bung for drain should be located exactly as original so it is accessible through hole in core support

If the overall width is close to stock, will the fabricated end tanks have square edges that will cause interference? Can someone check the clearances around the stock radiator end tanks. should the end tanks be made \_/ v shaped to add clearance around edges of tank? I think I remember locating bumps that had to be hammered down when I used a much wider radiator (5 core) with fabricated tanks.

I am going to mention the fact that v8 cars had issues with temperature creep in low speed/stop and go traffic situations and that I believe the factory used a thinner core with wider fin spacing along with a smaller water pump pulley to increase fan speed, a heavily pitched fan blade with a thermostatic clutch to reduce parastatic losses when not needed all as a means of encouraging low speed air movement through the radiator. They know more about radiator design and I will leave it up to them to determine things like fin count and core thickness.

champion uses louvered fins on their radiators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmbdZQPEyF4



Note that replacements for the clutch fan are non existent. Would a direct replacement for this application be warranted?

If they are going to stock radiators they will need:

-curved neck for v8 with ps or any accessory brackets that mount on drivers side
-straight neck for v8 without accessory on drivers side, v6, (4cyl?), ls conversions

If they make a 4cyl radiator should it be the same dimensions as the v6/v8 just with a thinner core or should they build it like the factory with a narrower core?

If there is no option on nipple orientation I think it should be oriented (looking from front of car) 90 degrees to passenger side. With the nipple in this location even if the coolant recovery canister is on the drivers side the hose will have clamps attaching it to the upper radiator hold down which should prevent the hose from contacting nearby pulleys.

Any consensus on whether the difference specified in the parts catalog for v8's with sport and non sport front ends has to do with:
1)the angle of the curved neck in relation to the hoodline.
2)the orientation of the nipple with regard to coolant recovery tank location
3) wider upper portion of drivers side tank.




All comments appreciated.
monzaaddict
 
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby cjbiagi » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:27 pm

Another thing I noticed between my 3 row copper brass and the Griffin was the number of actual tubes. There was a big difference in the amount of tubes top to bottom. I believe it went from something like 28 to 35 with the Griffin. This means the rows were spaced closer together top to bottom. I will say the Griffin cools very well, so it's a great pattern to use.
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
User avatar
cjbiagi
 
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:37 pm
Location: Glenwood, Illinois

1975 Chevrolet Monza

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:42 am

For what it's worth, I went out to the garage to look at my radiators and took some pics. I didn't have as many lying around as I thought (my V8 2-core was stolen from my storage unit years ago) but I did have an example of an aftermarket 3-core Vega/Monza radiator from years ago, a factory Monza 3-core radiator, and the Griffin 400hp radiator that I bought. Don't know if this is helpful, but here are some comparisons:
Attachments
2015-02-05_054747.jpg
2015-02-05_054747.jpg (93.78 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_055633.jpg
2015-02-05_055633.jpg (63.5 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_055725.jpg
2015-02-05_055725.jpg (90.82 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_055809.jpg
2015-02-05_055809.jpg (72.47 KiB) Viewed 613 times
Ken Mahoy
'78 C06 Monza Spyder
User avatar
mahoy78spyder
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Covington, IN

1978 Chevrolet Monza Spyder

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:46 am

Here are some more... sorry these old radiators look like crap. I didn't have time to clean them up - I just literally grabbed them off my shelf where I store them.
Attachments
2015-02-05_062623.jpg
2015-02-05_062623.jpg (122.65 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_062810.jpg
2015-02-05_062810.jpg (150.03 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_060057.jpg
2015-02-05_060057.jpg (71.51 KiB) Viewed 613 times
Ken Mahoy
'78 C06 Monza Spyder
User avatar
mahoy78spyder
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Covington, IN

1978 Chevrolet Monza Spyder

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:57 am

There's been some chatter about the Monza auxiliary fans as well. I don't honestly know for what applications they were installed. I always thought it curious that my V8 Monza with A/C never originally came with one. When I installed my aftermarket 3-core radiator years ago, I purchased two aftermarket "pusher" fans and then installed a 160-degree thermostat, and "still" occasionally had overheating troubles in traffic. Over the years, I've pulled 3 examples of factory Monza auxiliary fans. (there are a couple different variants of them) ...and yes, I realize I misspelled "auxiliary".
Attachments
2015-02-05_060346.jpg
2015-02-05_060346.jpg (120.39 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_060818.jpg
2015-02-05_060818.jpg (92.62 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_060842.jpg
2015-02-05_060842.jpg (110.45 KiB) Viewed 613 times
2015-02-05_060200.jpg
2015-02-05_060200.jpg (119.71 KiB) Viewed 613 times
Ken Mahoy
'78 C06 Monza Spyder
User avatar
mahoy78spyder
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Covington, IN

1978 Chevrolet Monza Spyder

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:05 am

The Griffin radiator is a great replacement and while I've not installed it yet, it fits exactly into the factory rubber boots where my old radiator sat, and the dimensions are spot on! I bought mine with the curved neck because I have power steering, and opted for the optional trans cooler in the tank as well. It also comes with the trans coolant level bung in the factory location. (you have to install the sensor yourself.) See pics below:
Attachments
2015-02-05_061156.jpg
2015-02-05_061156.jpg (124.51 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_061257.jpg
2015-02-05_061257.jpg (40.46 KiB) Viewed 612 times
Ken Mahoy
'78 C06 Monza Spyder
User avatar
mahoy78spyder
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Covington, IN

1978 Chevrolet Monza Spyder

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:12 am

Since we're attempting to get Champion to create a good universal radiator, here are some good comparisons of the Griffin next to the factory 3-core. Griffin did a good job of getting everything right, it seems, but they're just too dang expensive! See comparisons below:
Attachments
2015-02-05_061442.jpg
2015-02-05_061442.jpg (106.38 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_061555.jpg
2015-02-05_061555.jpg (59 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_061704.jpg
2015-02-05_061704.jpg (56.22 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_061815.jpg
2015-02-05_061815.jpg (61.94 KiB) Viewed 612 times
Ken Mahoy
'78 C06 Monza Spyder
User avatar
mahoy78spyder
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Covington, IN

1978 Chevrolet Monza Spyder

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:18 am

And lastly, I was concerned about fitment, so I installed my Griffin and compared it to the factory 3-core. You can see it fits within the factory dimensions and rests perfectly on the factory rubber boots. One thing I was worried about was the drain plug being positioned more to the passenger side and wondered if I'd have trouble accessing it through the factory access hole in the radiator core support. Turns out there's no trouble at all. :th:
Attachments
2015-02-05_062227.jpg
2015-02-05_062227.jpg (73.75 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_062239.jpg
2015-02-05_062239.jpg (46.12 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_062047.jpg
2015-02-05_062047.jpg (43.25 KiB) Viewed 612 times
2015-02-05_062157.jpg
2015-02-05_062157.jpg (49.2 KiB) Viewed 612 times
Ken Mahoy
'78 C06 Monza Spyder
User avatar
mahoy78spyder
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: Covington, IN

1978 Chevrolet Monza Spyder

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby cjbiagi » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:43 pm

Notice the difference in the number of rows top to bottom? I think I counted 26 on the stock ones and 34 on the Griffin. The Griffin radiator is a very well designed radiator from fit to actual performance. If it can be duplicated that would be great,
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
User avatar
cjbiagi
 
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:37 pm
Location: Glenwood, Illinois

1975 Chevrolet Monza

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:45 pm

I am told Champion is working on this and will have something available in the near future.
monzaaddict
 
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby Monza Harry » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:39 pm

mahoy78spyder wrote:There's been some chatter about the Monza auxiliary fans as well. I don't honestly know for what applications they were installed. I always thought it curious that my V8 Monza with A/C never originally came with one. When I installed my aftermarket 3-core radiator years ago, I purchased two aftermarket "pusher" fans and then installed a 160-degree thermostat, and "still" occasionally had overheating troubles in traffic. Over the years, I've pulled 3 examples of factory Monza auxiliary fans. (there are a couple different variants of them) ...and yes, I realize I misspelled "auxiliary".

Hey Ken! Monzaaddict re-booted this so I read back a little and looked this up In my factory service manual ['76, I'll check the '78 when I think of it] it states that it was installed in "All V8 Monza's with A/C", so either that hot little commodity was lifted or GM changed their mind! [I was told by a young engineer that had the job of preliminary compilation of these books [not H-Body ones, whatever one he was working on] that the lead time meant that they were "Riddled with Inaccuracies" as things were changing until and after vehicle launch and the books had to be available at launch every year. He hated that "Newbie Job". You would think they would have included the "HD Cooling Package" [full shroud] with that combo as well then you would have been made in the shade! You bought yours new right, so either GM never put it there or some "Sticky Fingered Bastard" liked it better than you [dealer employee maybe with a Rod or friend?] or GM changed their mind(?) I am wondering if and how your baby is coming along? Post us some scraps Ken, or shoot me your number and I'll call you and we can bug each other about not working on our cars! :lol: Harry
Harry added wrote:P.S. Ken the '78 manual says the same thing as the early manual. It notes that the sender [~235*] is in the rear of the right side head [between #6&8 would be my best educated guess]. It appears in the illustrations that the whole auxiliary fan harness is a plug in harness to the regular harness, so I would think pretty easy with a couple of hours to remove it with almost no trace of it's previous existence! Maybe you could see evidence at the rear sender point?
Last edited by Monza Harry on Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not a hoarder I'm a preservationist 78 Monza Spyder (Soon To Be 2+2 with Spoilers)
User avatar
Monza Harry
 
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:50 am
Location: Windsor ON Canada

1978 Chevrolet Monza 2+2

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby jim327monza » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:29 pm

Ok for my two cents worth. I have just ordered the griffin "400 hp" radiator. I think the core design has been changed some because this is a 1 1.5" tube unit, the tanks are 2". They also offer "racing fins" as an upgrade and that will bump the hp rating to 500. I opted not to up grade doe to the fact that the racing fins are closer together and that will restrict air flow at low speed witch is where most of our overheating problems occur. I have power steering and AC and that makes the fan location even more difficult. Griffin is sending a blank shroud, so that i can find the best place to mount the fan(s). It takes 2-3 weeks to get the rad. once it is in and i have the fans mounted i will post pic.
Jim H
jim327monza
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Re: Champion radiator v6/v8 radiator

Postby monzaaddict » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:33 pm

I am told they ARE working on this now! First version will have straight neck then curved for v8 with ps.
monzaaddict
 
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:04 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

     
cron