Coolant part 2

[dindin]

I have taken my head off and it looks like a big mess, the gasket was stuck to the head and I had to pry it off with plastic spatula,

I have some pictures maybe someone has an idea of whats going on, I think the gasket if not good..

the first one was 30 years old when I removed the head and and it was intact..

This one has all the paper peeled off, the motor is newly rebuild and I only ran it for about 2 hours or so to tune it and look for leaks on my engine run stand.

Aanyway here go some shots of what I found.

block new2.jpg

block3.3.jpg

head new3.jpg

gasket1.jpg

[hammerdown7]

Al,

I'm sending a link to both threads to John Cowall. I haven't used this gasket or have even looked at one so I have no idea what happened here.

Dick

[Monza Harry]

Al there is an old "Racers" trick to make gasket clean up easier, they spray the mating surfaces with "Aluminum Paint" you know the type that comes off on your hands when you touch it. This is thin enough to not affect most gaskets performance, but allows the gasket to be removed without fuss [and possibly re-use] this would have allowed a better inspection. Now looking at the pic's I don't see evidence of coolant in the chambers (they would be real clean) and the rest is going to be hard to tell especially over the net. Harry

[buddyleejjc2]

Did you do a compression test before or after finding the coolant in the oil? If so, what was the compression readings? How much coolant was in the oil? A 50/ 50 mix, or less?
Thanks,
John J Cowall

[dindin]

[quote="buddyleejjc2"]Did you do a compression test before or after finding the coolant in the oil? If so, what was the compression readings? How much coolant was in the oil? A 50/ 50 mix, or less?

Hi John thanks for comming to help,

Yes I did a compression test before but not after I found the coolant in the oil, it was after I assembled everything and after I ran it a couple times, it measured 150 on each cylinder with throttle wide open...


The people who tested my oil said it had 13% coolant and 1.65% water, that was from a small jar that I collected from the oil drain plug..But on the dip stick the oil was not high just a whitish mix which is why I had it tested..



Al

[dindin]

Al there is an old "Racers" trick to make gasket clean up easier, they spray the mating surfaces with "Aluminum Paint" you know the type that comes off on your hands when you touch it. This is thin enough to not affect most gaskets performance, but allows the gasket to be removed without fuss [and possibly re-use] this would have allowed a better inspection. Now looking at the pic's I don't see evidence of coolant in the chambers (they would be real clean) and the rest is going to be hard to tell especially over the net. Harry

Thanks harry, but why would it come apart like this after only running a couple hours??

Thanks Al

[dindin]

Al,

I'm sending a link to both threads to John Cowall. I haven't used this gasket or have even looked at one so I have no idea what happened here.

Dick

Thanks Dick I appreciate this!

Al

[buddyleejjc2]

Ok, I see we have two threads on this. I do not think it was the head gasket. If you look at the intake valves on the #3 cylinder, and the #1 cylinder, they look wet. #2 and #4 are pretty dry. I would have the head bench tested again. It looks like coolant is leaking into the chambers from the valves. The Mating surfaces look to be good and sealed where the head gasket crushed to the cylinders. We had one engine where the compression was north of 250 which caused the gasket to fail, and your engine doesn't show any signs of that. I would strongly recommend against using that head again. (I have plenty of extras, replace the valves and valve seals with the ones in the head and you got and you should be good. As for the head gasket disintergrating the way it did, that just means it worked, but basically welding itself to the surfaces. Thanks, John J. Cowall

[dindin]

Ok, I see we have two threads on this. I do not think it was the head gasket. If you look at the intake valves on the #3 cylinder, and the #1 cylinder, they look wet. #2 and #4 are pretty dry. I would have the head bench tested again. It looks like coolant is leaking into the chambers from the valves. The Mating surfaces look to be good and sealed where the head gasket crushed to the cylinders. We had one engine where the compression was north of 250 which caused the gasket to fail, and your engine doesn't show any signs of that. I would strongly recommend against using that head again. (I have plenty of extras, replace the valves and valve seals with the ones in the head and you got and you should be good. As for the head gasket disintergrating the way it did, that just means it worked, but basically welding itself to the surfaces. Thanks, John J. Cowall

John,

The head surface had some pitting where the gasket meets on the surface and the coolant touches the head, they welded it..

so you think coolant is seeping down past the rings?? I would hate the throw this head away after having all this work done on it if its something else, is this very common and a pressure test will not pick it up??

Oh and I am located in Connecticut from the other thread..

Thanks alot.
Al

[buddyleejjc2]

I would have the head pressure tested again. Just to be sure. If they say it is OK, then that should eliminate that problem. If the head is not the problem, then coolant would be getting through somewhere else. How does the underside of the Head Gasket look? Does it look like it seated properly, especially around the #4 cylinder?
Thanks,
John J. Cowall

[buddyleejjc2]

Trying to think this through. If the exhaust was not white, then the coolant is not getting into the combustion chamber. Where else would the oil and coolant mix? The coolant is not under high pressure as it drains from the head down to the block through the holes. Oil pressure is high only going through the restriction hole. The black surface of the head gasket that mates with the head coming apart shouldn't be the Culprit. The underside of the head gasket, where it seals on the cylinder lip, is the weakest spot of the head gasket. If that part failed, it would be sucking coolant into the combustion chamber causing white smoke. Another question as I try to type my way through this. How did the coolant look inside the block? Around the cylinders? Was this straight coolant or was there oil in this as well?
Thanks,
John J. Cowall

[cammerjeff]

I hate to say it but it could also be a cracked block, I had a simarlure issue with a iron block some years ago porosity can be an issue with aluminum parts also. Not ever having owned a 2.3 or 2.0 Powered Vega puts me at a disadvantage on this.
Any way a Water pump gasket failure could cause this?

[dindin]

When I ran the engine on my engine run stand, once the engine was warmed up (cause it was cold out) it did not smoke, I was thinking also it would have lots of smoke if the coolant was inside the combustion chamber, I did not see any oil in the coolant around the pistons..I did add some coolant additive to the radiator thats why it looks reddish..
I will check the block side of the gasket and take some shots maybe I am missing something.

Thanks Al

[dindin]

I hate to say it but it could also be a cracked block, I had a simarlure issue with a iron block some years ago porosity can be an issue with aluminum parts also. Not ever having owned a 2.3 or 2.0 Powered Vega puts me at a disadvantage on this.
Any way a Water pump gasket failure could cause this?

The water pump gasket will not cause coolant in the oil from what I see, I dont think its a cracked block because the oil level did not rise..I think its only a running issue..but I not 100%

Thanks Al

[buddyleejjc2]

There is a way to pressure the coolant jacket, the area around the cylinders. Use the old head gasket, out the head on and torque it down. (This a great reason to have studs!) Then fab up a plate to cover the water pump spot. On the plate, weld up a air inlet to allow you to use pressurized air. Then pressurize it with an air compressor. (Think like you are blowing up a tire). Get it to about 70-80 psi, and let it sit overnight. Then check the pressure in the morning. If it has dropped, there is a crack in the block sonewhere. A little easier method is to put a solid plate over the waterpump hole, and just fill the waterjacket to the lip of the cylinders and let it sit for about 6-10 hours. Check it, and see if the water level dropped. If it did, you have a cracked block. A cracked block somewhere in the waterjacket would make some sense, since the coolant got into the oil, and not in the combustion chamber. I am still puzzled by the no white smoke part though.I am sure you are like me, you want to know the issue before reassembling, other wise you are looking at possibly the same outcome. (If you don't mind, can you send me some pictures via email of your car and specificly the engine running stand? I have been contemplating making one and have an idea in my head, but seeing one in pictures would be nice.)