Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Moderator: Moderators

Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby bugdewde » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:59 am

Ok..... so the '72 Kammback has a '62 Olds 215 V8 that has been "losing" a bit of oil since I bought it last year. Occasionally, I noticed some smoke at the tailpipe after warming up some but nothing major. I also thought it was tuned just a little rich, too.

So, today.... I notice this huge smoke cloud while stopped after taking off the trash. Thought somebody was sitting behind me with an oil burner (couldn't see behind me due to the trailer). :lol: Well.... it was me :oops:

It cleans up when driving and with revs.... but after idling about 20 seconds, it starts smoke screening.
It is definitely oil smoke, not steam.


Attached video to show the excessive smoke. Noticeable by 20 seconds, ...... horrible by 30 seconds.

https://youtu.be/f9NM5bBibos

Any diagnosis? I'm thinking oil rings that seal up with compression/revs. Is that possible?
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
User avatar
bugdewde
 
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: East Tennessee

1972 Chevrolet Vega Kammback GT


Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby cjbiagi » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:16 pm

I am not familiar with that engine but usually smoke at idle could be rings, but could also be leaky valve guides which usually smoke upon deceleration (high vacuum condition). I would start with a simple compression test and see what that shows. Oil can also enter the combustion chamber on a sbc through a leaky intake manifold gasket, also make sure all you breathers are in place and operating properly.
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
User avatar
cjbiagi
 
Posts: 7952
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:37 pm
Location: Glenwood, Illinois

1975 Chevrolet Monza

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby cosvega76 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:16 am

I agree with Clyde, but I'd vote for failed valve stem seals/loose valve guides. Back in the '80s, Chrysler minivans used Mitsubishi V6s with aluminum heads. They had a problem with the valve guides dropping in the heads, exposing them from the seals. They were known for excessive smoke while idling in the McDonald's drive-thru lane.

Chuck
cosvega76
 
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:36 am
Location: Moscow Mills, MO

1973 Chevrolet Vega GT

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby cjbiagi » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:49 am

Good tip Chuck, and the engine is at a relatively high vacuum level at idle so it could point to guides or guide seals.
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
User avatar
cjbiagi
 
Posts: 7952
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:37 pm
Location: Glenwood, Illinois

1975 Chevrolet Monza

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby cammerjeff » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:55 am

I agree it is probably valve tip seals, if it were rings you would notice it more than just low rpm, and you may also have partially clogged oil drain back holes in the head. Buick 350 & 455 V-8's tend to coke up under the valve covers for some reason (V-6's also) stands to reason the earlier Aluminum V-8's would also. Something to look at when replacing the tip seals.
Jeff R

78 Sunbird Safari Wagon, 3.8 N/A, 1971 Catalina Freeway Enforcer
77 Astre Formula, some day soon powered by a 215 Buick V-8
1973 4-speed Lemans Safari STOCK!!!!! 1978 Catalina Safari
1971 Lemans Safari/GTO Clone, 1969 Firebird Sprint 301 ci OHC6, T-5, 4.10 12 bolt posi
User avatar
cammerjeff
 
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Belleville Mi

1978 Pontiac Sunbird Safari Wagon

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby gerbsinmd » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:01 am

I'm not sure of the design of that engine, but check your oil drainback holes in the heads. When I got my mirage it did the same thing. if I parked the car on a hill nose down it didn't do it. on the level or up hill in a very short amount of time, smoking like crazy. It was filling up the valve cover with oil and it was submerging the valve guides in oil.
Cleaned out the drainback holes and problem was solved.
1997 Blazer - Being driven by my daughter :S
2008 Town & Country - Kid transport
2002 Saturn SL2 Commuter car 36mpg!!!!

1977 Monza Mirage being Restified!!
User avatar
gerbsinmd
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Dunkirk, MD

1977 Chevrolet Monza Mirage

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby Monza Harry » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:00 pm

gerbsinmd wrote:I'm not sure of the design of that engine, but check your oil drainback holes in the heads. When I got my mirage it did the same thing. if I parked the car on a hill nose down it didn't do it. on the level or up hill in a very short amount of time, smoking like crazy. It was filling up the valve cover with oil and it was submerging the valve guides in oil.
Cleaned out the drainback holes and problem was solved.

That would be an easy fix and as cheap as they come! Fingers crossed for you. I would do the seals anyway you are right there, and only a little harder especially with the ease of access to the H-Body spark plugs. Harry
I'm not a hoarder I'm a preservationist 78 Monza Spyder (Soon To Be 2+2 with Spoilers)
User avatar
Monza Harry
 
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:50 am
Location: Windsor ON Canada

1978 Chevrolet Monza 2+2

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby HI WINDING MONZA » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:38 pm

My Silverado does the same thing ,but not as bad..... the 88-9? Chevy V8's were famous fo valve seal failures................some day I'll replace mine or maybe not since these engines last over 300k+ and up miles................ :D


Doug in P.R. 8)
My Old Cadillac Powered Monza Still Lives...........now on its 5th owner!..........Somewhere ?

The 90's just keep rollin' along........
1990 Chevrolet Silverado Regular Cab Long Bed 350 TBI V8 700R4 105k miles
1992 Pontiac Sunbird Coupe 2.0 OHC MPFI I4 TH125C 142k miles
User avatar
HI WINDING MONZA
 
Posts: 2956
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Salinas, Puerto Rico

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby EVL VEGA » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Here's a viable option. :mrgreen:
Image
EVL VEGA
'73 Vega Hatchback (former Super Gas car)
406 SBC, AFR 210 Eliminator Heads, 9:1 comp, pump gas, 328RWHP/412RWTQ (old heads, no N2O 1/17/04), 6.86 @ 100.8 in 1/8th (No N20 9/4/16), Mike's Trans TH400 (reverse manual), 5000 stall, 12 bolt, 35 spline strange axles, 4.33 gears, spool, hipster transbrake, linelock, backhalved, Alston 3 link, 100 shot NX Hitman+ kit, LC1 Wideband sensor, 31x18.5 MT Sportsman Pros, "Plum Ugly"™ Purple paint.
"Pound to fit..paint to match"
Image
User avatar
EVL VEGA
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:31 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

1973 Chevrolet Vega

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby bugdewde » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:09 am

I posted some videos for desktop diagnosis.


Apparently, the Olds version of the 215 valvetrain are completely different than the Buick versions. I don't know much about them. More internet searching to do.

It doesn't look like much oil is getting up to the rockers...... especially at idle. Buick 215s will do that if the rocker shafts are reversed. Not sure about Olds.
I pulled the valve covers looking for coking but everything looked really clean (except the oil). There didn't appear to be any drainback blockage..... heck, the oil barely flowed up there at all (other than puddles in the lower head.
head drainback hole.jpeg
head drainback hole.jpeg (83.06 KiB) Viewed 167 times


See video of a cold start with valve cover off .... Idle oil pressure is a solid 50-60 psi cold. Notice the oil barely weeping out of the pushrod hole in the rocker. Idle oil pressure is 50-60 psi.
https://youtu.be/XJVrjNaTVk0

Here it is warmed up a bit..... more flow, but not like I expected. I've seen SBCs squirt oil over the fender from the rockers.
https://youtu.be/KQZ80enKfk8

No compression test yet..... Most of my tools are in the basement at the old house. I don't get over there as much as I need to.
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
User avatar
bugdewde
 
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: East Tennessee

1972 Chevrolet Vega Kammback GT

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby 1oldmf » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:17 pm

compression test may not show the problem
as oil tends to help seal the rings,
better test would be a leak down ,
if you can get a bore scope, look at the piston top,
if the edges are clean, and the center is dirty, oil is coming up past
the rings, if its all carbon covered , means rings are good,
1oldmf
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby avewhtboy » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:48 pm

just pull that turd and put and LS1 in it
User avatar
avewhtboy
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:06 am
Location: Stone Mountain Georgia

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby bugdewde » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:39 am

avewhtboy wrote:just pull that turd and put and LS1 in it


Rick, I don't need any encouragement. Love the 6.0 in the GTO. Awesome power plant.
However, I'd like to live a little longer. 240-250 lb-ft torque in a Vega is plenty ... 400 and I'd die quickly! Not to mention the cost of all the "upgrades" ..... trans, rear, traction, braking...... yeah, I'd die.

I'll only run it a little longer, since there isn't any heat in the car. Once it's put up, I'll do some mentioned diagnostics ... probably pull the heads and swap on the Offy intake and a new carb (one of the carb's shafts leaks horribly... whistles around 10 psi vacuum.... very annoying).

I have a Buick 215 on the engine stand awaiting a Buick 300 crank swap. Pump the 215's 2.8" stroke up to 3.4".... nets almost ..... 260 cubes. That's almost an LS, right? Lol.
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
User avatar
bugdewde
 
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: East Tennessee

1972 Chevrolet Vega Kammback GT

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby cammerjeff » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:03 am

avewhtboy wrote:just pull that turd and put and LS1 in it


Rick, I don't mean to offend you, but commenents like that really turn me off, I don't find them helpful to the original poster. I like to see something different being built and the 215 Buick or Olds is a nice package in a Vega or Astre.

Yes a LS engine is hard to beat but I get really bored looking at 50 modified cars at a show and 99% of them have the same powertrain set up.

I am only familure with the Buick Version of the 215. I know the Olds heads have a extra Head bolt compared to the Buick's and head gasket sealing is supposedly better for the Turbo Charged versions due to the extra bolt. But what other mods Olds Made to the design I don't know. They were really cutting edge for 1960 engineering.

the heads do look clean, and I agree it might be helpful to buy a cheap borescope and look down the spark plug holes at the top of the pistons.

A friend of mine has this one

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AI ... 3DYRGY3XP1

and it works well, but his is the older version that does not record images.
Jeff R

78 Sunbird Safari Wagon, 3.8 N/A, 1971 Catalina Freeway Enforcer
77 Astre Formula, some day soon powered by a 215 Buick V-8
1973 4-speed Lemans Safari STOCK!!!!! 1978 Catalina Safari
1971 Lemans Safari/GTO Clone, 1969 Firebird Sprint 301 ci OHC6, T-5, 4.10 12 bolt posi
User avatar
cammerjeff
 
Posts: 2110
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Belleville Mi

1978 Pontiac Sunbird Safari Wagon

Re: Buring a lot of oil at idle ?

Postby bugdewde » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:20 am

Thanks for the link, Jeff.
As mentioned, I'll do some diagnostics, & pull the intake for a swap..... might as well do a head pull while down. Valve job for sure and maybe rings if indicated.

It's all good on the ls comment. I've known Rick for several years..... when we were autocrossing 2nd gen Firebirds down at the Peach State Muscle Car Challenge. He knows I'm reluctant to doing an LS swap 'cause we all know I sold my last rare '79 W72 T/A because I couldn't bring myself to do an LS swap in it........ sold it & bought an '81 turbo 301 T/A for that purpose. Now, I'm enjoying the 301 car so much the LS swap for it is off..... however a manual trans swap is in the foreseeable future.

I just can't seem to get an ls in anything (except the '06 GTO).

Odd stuff for me..... yep, odd stuff.
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
User avatar
bugdewde
 
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: East Tennessee

1972 Chevrolet Vega Kammback GT

Next

Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest