Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

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Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby bugdewde » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:24 am

OK..... Backstory:
Timeframe: 2004-2005-ish
After collapsing a lifter and sort of messing up a valve/pushrod/lifter while showing a buddy how easily a '63 Buick 215 V8 could twist up to 7000 rpm with it's 2.8" stroke, I swapped in a used lifter/pushrod from a spare parts motor and had my heads gone over by a local machinist buddy of mine.
By the way, the 215 had 5500 rpm rated valve springs, so I deserved a good swift kick to the groin for doing that... but it liked to rev

I put it all back together and drove it a year or so before I finally had an engine failure. Oil light came on and it seemed to miss a lick or two. I shut down a short distance from the house and checked out the oil level, etc. All seemed fine. I restarted and the oil light would come on at idle (ran rough) but light went out with revs. I limped on home in a lower gear to maintain oil pressure (no light as long as I kept revs up). Fuel pump would kick off with no oil pressure.

I assumed I'd spun a main bearing... or worse. I pulled the engine and put it on an engine stand. Image

I'd planned on doing a Buick 300 crank stroke job ...... so I started gathering parts. Time passed and life happened. Engine never got torn down. Still sitting on stand.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Today:

My '72 Kammback GT has the OLDS version of the Buick 215 aluminum V8. It has started smoking after it warms up a bit. Clears out with revs so I think it might be the valve guides/seals.
I have a relatively newly gone through set of Buick heads on the engine sitting on the stand (from 10 years ago). So I'm gonna swap heads (can swap Buick 5-bolt/cylinder heads onto an Olds 6-bolt/cylinder block.... but not vise-versa. I should be good (although probably a bit less compression ratio).

So i start removing the heads from the 10-year-on-the-stand Buick engine today:
Driver cylinders.jpg
Driver cylinders.jpg (71.17 KiB) Viewed 507 times


Lots of carbon on pistons............ but engine ran GREAT before the loss of oil pressure. No issues whatsoever. LOVED IT!!!!

10-year-ago freshened Heads & valves worked GREAT, too (before the oil pressure loss):
Here's one removed today 10 years later.
Driver Head removed.jpg
Driver Head removed.jpg (65.7 KiB) Viewed 507 times




So, while it's drained coolant and oil on the floor everywhere...... I might as well pull the oil pan to see if there was any main bearing carnage or loose rods....... AND THIS IS WHAT I SAW !!!!!!! :shock:
Clogged pick up screen!!!!
Oil pick up screen close.jpg
Oil pick up screen close.jpg (85.74 KiB) Viewed 507 times


IS the screen the only filter media on the pick up..... or is that a sponge-type filter lying on the screen? I haven't moved or touched it yet (want an engine guru buddy to see it as is).

I don't know where this gunk came from, as I didn't build the engine or look at the bottom end when I bought the car. I only had the heads off when I collapsed the lifter 11 or so years ago (doing stupid stuff).
The screen is only visible in the middle .... There's rtv looking sealant pieces (orange and blue), long metal pieces (maybe flash), and black gunk!!!!

I might have let this engine sit on the stand 10 years simply because the pick up was clogged......... :bang:
I don't think it's hurt. Just starved for oil (oil light) and the fuel pump kicked off.. causing it to run rough (sucking fuel). Revs got some oil through (no oil light) and the fuel pump would kick back in...... ??????

Anyway.... these Buick semi-hemi heads are going onto the Olds block this weekend .... I have an autocross next weekend I want to make :lol:
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby bugdewde » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:35 am

More pics:


other head/cylinders (passenger):
More carbon......

Passenger cylinders.jpg
Passenger cylinders.jpg (44.17 KiB) Viewed 506 times


Passenger head removed.jpg
Passenger head removed.jpg (62 KiB) Viewed 506 times




Oil pick up pics:

Oil Pan removed.jpg
Oil Pan removed.jpg (70.25 KiB) Viewed 506 times


Oil pick up screen.jpg
Oil pick up screen.jpg (67.65 KiB) Viewed 506 times
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby cjbiagi » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:11 pm

The only pickups I have seen are a screen, nothing else.
Clyde.........75 Monza 2+2
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby Smiley » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:07 am

Unless some shady seller tried to hide a rod knock with saw dust in the oil :shock: check the timing set and the distributor drive gear.
Some of the older engines came from the factory with bakelite/phenolic camshaft and or distributor gears, even if it has metal gears now who ever replaced it may not have dropped the pan and cleaned out the pickup tube.
I would check the rod and main bearings while it is apart also.
This also occured on other engines like Ford V8's in the late 70's-early 80's with the nylon coated aluminum cam gears.
The nylon cracked, then small chunks broke off and ended up in the oil pump pick up screen starving the oil pump.
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby Smiley » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:12 pm

Has your buddy looked at it yet ?
It does look like the screen is removable and may have had a fabric or sponge cover.
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby cammerjeff » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:12 am

Most Buick, Olds, and Pontiac oil pick up tubes are pressed in, so not easily removable. I have never seen any with an addition removable cover or foam filter element on them, I would think that was just asking for trouble when they broke down.

As for the debris on you pick up, 1st we need to know if it is magnetic or non magnetic metallic material. If magnetic it would indicate it cam from the crank or camshaft/lifters (or block on a cast iron engine, N/A here) Non magnetic would indicate bearing material. I would guess it came from main or rod bearings, when they overheat the resulting "material" can look very dark and almost like carbon.

I would definatly pull the main and rod caps off and inspect them. I am in the never ending process of installing a 215 into my 77 Astre so I am curious on what you find.
Jeff R

78 Sunbird Safari Wagon, 3.8 N/A, 1971 Catalina Freeway Enforcer
77 Astre Formula, some day soon powered by a 215 Buick V-8
1973 4-speed Lemans Safari STOCK!!!!! 1978 Catalina Safari
1969 Firebird Sprint 301 ci OHC6, T-5, 4.10 12 bolt posi
2006 Mallet Solstice, 6.0 LS2, 6-speed manual
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby dindin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:29 am

Maybe who ever owned it before you just never changed the oil after it was built and broken in ?




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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby bugdewde » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:15 am

I haven't visited this engine lately because I've been doing the head swap onto the other 215 in my '72 Kammback.

My machinist buddy looked at the pics and said the metal is probably bearing slivers and the black stuff MIGHT be from the reaction certain old oils (compatibility/mixes) have with aluminum . As i said, I haven't physically touched this engine (it's stored 20 miles away) since removing the heads/pan.

My current head swap is kicking my tail (see my post on that fiasco titled "Burns oil at idle").
After several failed attempts, my current hurdle is the inability of starting 3 head bolts due to exhaust manifold interference. Removing manifolds from head but still connected to the downpipes doesn't give me enough room.... because of the "y-pipe" connecting the two manifolds together hitting the engine/bell. I don't want to remove them from the downpipes because I'm sure the donut gasket bolts will snap. I just know they will.

Here's the manifold interference:
Buick head swapped onto the Olds block with Buick300 manifolds (still connected to downpipes)
Bolt wont align.jpeg
Bolt wont align.jpeg (50.53 KiB) Viewed 394 times


Here's one of the tricks I used to get all but 2 of the driver's side started:
ratchet strap.jpeg
ratchet strap.jpeg (53.12 KiB) Viewed 394 times


Of course, the strap wouldn't open/release.... so I had to cut it to release..... :bang:
Dwight

'73 Vega GT Hatchback, mostly stock....
'72 Vega GT Kammback, 215 V8
'73 Vega Wagon - Currently in Limbo....
My rides: http://www.cardomain.com/id/bugdewde
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Re: Oil Pickup Screen DEBRIS !!!!! 10 year mistake?

Postby Monza Harry » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:31 pm

bugdewde wrote: My current head swap is kicking my tail (see my post on that fiasco titled "Burns oil at idle").
After several failed attempts, my current hurdle is the inability of starting 3 head bolts due to exhaust manifold interference. Removing manifolds from head but still connected to the downpipes doesn't give me enough room.... because of the "y-pipe" connecting the two manifolds together hitting the engine/bell. [color=#FF0000]I don't want to remove them from the downpipes because I'm sure the donut gasket bolts will snap. I just know they will. [Quote
Of course, the strap wouldn't open/release.... so I had to cut it to release..... :bang:

Dwight if the doughnuts are available for $20 or less stop futzing around and be over it, and then drive it, sometimes we are our own worst enemy! Trust me I know this from extensive personal experience, YES really me! I know, who would have thought? :oops: :? I have fought, bled, swore, and other things so heinous that I can't even remember them [and way too em-barr-assing to reveal publicly :oops: ]! Help yourself and just undo the manifold from the pipe you may only need to just loosen them up, maybe a lot. And as for those straps the dollar store is your friend, I have some that were as cheap as $1.00 and many reclaimed ones [free + time] so if the unmentionable is required few tears needed :cry: Keep us in the loop. Harry
I'm not a hoarder I'm a preservationist 78 Monza Spyder (Soon To Be 2+2 with Spoilers)
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