The 151 is worthy I think?

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The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby rgsuperstrat » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:05 pm

So I have the 151 in my 80 Spyder, carb on passenger side engine. I could put the small block in my garage in the car, but I think it would be so much more fun with the four. I am kinda steering away from the SCCA plan. I want the car just to be fast and fun. So my question is, I have heard these are popular engines for race cars and boats and things, but have yet to find any go fast goodies. I think a cam, good exhaust, and a decent carb setup would be the poison. Who makes this stuff. I have found cams, but nothing else. If anybody has anything, please let me know. I dont know if this is the Iron Duke, because I think the Duke had a drivers side Holley, and mine has a passenger side Rochester. I think the engine has been changed, but have not really searched it out.
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Pontiac 151 (2.5l) Iron Duke is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:35 am

You have an Iron Duke with the cross-flow head. I'd build it instead of putting a V-8 in the Monza just to be different. To me, it's not always about horsepower.

I think you can still get pistons from several manufacturers.

I have seen a header and a couple of manifolds on ebay in the last six months. There may be some Super Duty parts available from somewhere - but they are expensive.

NOTE: There's a lot of info on the Pontiac 151 cu. in. (2.5 l) L4 (I-4) Iron Duke engine in this thread here on forums.h-body.org. Read on.
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Postby rgsuperstrat » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:18 pm

Thats pretty much where I was at with it. I like the being different thing, and V8 swap can be horribly expensive. Any idea on manufacturers on stuff? Thanks.
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Postby avitet » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:12 pm

look into fieros and s10 there are headers for them both for a duke i think the one for the s10 is from cliffordperformance.net or they had one at one point they also made intakes as far as pistons go you can use small block parts there is supposedly a way to make a chevy 2.5 crank fit with some machineing and have also heard about a mercury marine 3.0 crank id look for a later model s10 head or one from a fiero
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Postby res0o7eb » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:45 pm

Paul,

I just acquired a decent 1977 Pontiac Sunbird. It has the 151 with a Holley 2-bbl on the drivers side. The carb looks like a Vega GT 140 carb, except it's an electric choke.

I may rebuild the motor this winter, so I will be looking for performance parts. The 77 151 looks like it uses a different style camshaft than yours. Schneider Cams, Crane Cams, and Comp Cams all have offerings for these engines.
I've also noticed some commonality with the Pontiac 301 V-8 on pistons, bearings, etc.

Brian,
Thanks for the tips. If you find out any more info, post it here. I'll do likewise.

Clifford Performance makes products for in-line 6-cylinder engines. They used to support the Pontiac 230-250 cu. in. OHC-6 that were standard in Firebirds and Tempest/LeMans in the late 60's. I haven't heard of them ever making anything for the Iron Duke, but I could be wrong. Hope so, because then there might be some cheap used parts out there.
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I'm Wrong - Clifford does have iron duke parts!

Postby res0o7eb » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:20 pm

On cliffordperformance.net look under the store link for the Chevrolet 250-292 link. You'll see:
42-4518WH Ram Flow Intake Manifold for Chevy/Pontiac 151 cid Crossflow Engines
Image
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merc ... _Code=C250


52-1362 "6=8 HEADERS" Chevy S-10 /151 IRON DUKE GMC S-15 CROSSFLOW
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merc ... _Code=C250
Not sure why they have Pontiac parts under Chevrolet. Oh, well. At least they have some products.
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Postby rgsuperstrat » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Wow. Good find. I think a good moderate cam, four barrel, and a header. Should be a pretty exciting ride!!!!
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Postby avitet » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:02 am

yes it dose have alot in common with the 301 because well it is a 301 cut in half. as far as performance the engine flaws as far as i can tell are the crank and the heads there is a guy over on s10 forum who has his engine living at around 6500 but with a stock short block i wouldnt go that far maybe 5000 but with balancing and such 6000 to 7000 shouldnt be a problem and good luck with your build
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Postby marco_1978_spyder » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:40 pm

Talk to Doug, aka 'Hiwinding monza' if you do go 151 but my opinion is,

No way man....you wont have fun.

go with the small block...

think of how many days your going to have to work to build half as much STREETABLE power, versus how many days you'll have to work to afford a fast, fun SBC that you have time to drive (cause your not working)

Sure there's hi-po iron dukes and lots of support from pontiac performance (back in the day), go check some out.
They cost a mint to build up (if you use the real Super Duty items)
and they are loud and raw, and wont get you from stoplight to stoplight as well as they'll handle an endurance race for 4 hours at 9,000 rpm.

I studied building the 151 in my Formula, to keep it all pontiac, which I think is cool as hell, but I dont have the money to do it...
Go all out super duty.

On top of that....I also realized that just because the engine is the lightest.....dosent make it the best handler.....its actually sits taller and farther forward than the buick V6.

Over all I realized that the buick 231 motor was way better choice for the same type of garage build up I could feasibly work to afford.

the buick 215 is even better in the handling dept, but falls out of my buget range.

the sbc tops them all, in affordability/performance/handling, but it is rather typical.

But of course, this all just 'me' and this thread is about your build....so I'll end by saying....if your driven to build 'em....do it!.

I think even a 151 responds to typical garage performance mods...porting/exhaust/cam/intake ect.

It wont be a barn burner, but it will be spunkier better than before, and if you get a 5 speed on it, it'll get good gas mileage too.
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Postby res0o7eb » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:08 pm

Marco,

I agree with you - if you want RELIABLE horsepower, get it with more cubic inches.

I'm much more interested in a mild build-up of the 151 - the garage performance mods you mentioned. Since the engine in my Sunbird needs a rebuild, I'm going with more compression, too. Perhaps 9.5:1. Ross can provide the pistons. No, I won't get as much power as a V-8 and it won't be cheap, either. But, the money I save from NOT converting to a V-8 will go into the engine.

I do plan to steal the 5-speed and associated components from my 77 Vega GT and replace the 4-speed in the 77 Sunbird. It should be an easy and inexpensive swap. Heh-heh, with that said, it will probably be an expensive disaster ...
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Postby rickswagon » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:52 pm

mywebpage.netscape.com/fierost4rsc/tst4e.html found this sight guy building a 4 cycl has a lot of parts andwhat he did is doing to his might help?
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Postby rickswagon » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:01 pm

www.amotion.com try this sight have a lot of 4 banger stuff cams lifters diffferent kits
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Postby res0o7eb » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:45 pm

Rick,

Thanks for looking this stuff up.
The fiero engine build-up was done in 2000 based on the pictures.
I could not find the header on Jegs or Hooker (Holley).
Wouldn't work for my 1977 151 anyway.
Accelerated Motion is no longer in business according to website.
There's some good information at each of those sites, though.

Clifford Performance has a header for cross-flow iron duke.
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merc ... _Code=C250
Hmmm... they also offer a header for the 153 Chevy L-4.
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merc ... _Code=C250
And a manifold (their web site sucks - really have to dig to find stuff)
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/Merc ... _Code=C250
Image
I need to verify if this will work based on my findings below:

I ordered a cam from Schneider. It's not listed, but its between the 106202 and the 106203:
http://www.schneidercams.com/cams/104.htm
I'll list the specs when UPS delivers it.
Schneider tech guy said this engine is the same as the older Chevy L-4 in the Nova.

Comp Cams has a link for the Chevrolet 153 camshaft selection that goes to a Pontiac Iron Duke cam listing.
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... V464CAM153
Yet, these are different part numbers than the later Iron Duke.
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... ode=52-CAM

I found header flanges at Headers by Ed. http://www.headersbyed.com/__pontiac.htm
It also lists the 77-78 Pontiac 151 as a Chevy 153.
Website says they offer pre-built collectors and some tubing kits.
I'm not sure if I want to go that route, but I ordered the Header Design InfoPak anyway.
Lots of good info if you navigate thru the poorly-designed website.

KB Pistons
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/perf ... s&P_id=192
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Postby rickswagon » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:40 pm

thanks for the info what kind of hp you looking to get when done

just starting on 2.5 out of 82 firebird think its the same basic engine going in the wagon
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Postby res0o7eb » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:39 pm

Rick,

I don't have a big goal for this street-driven Sunbird - I'm not chasing a horsepower number. I know it sounds boring, but I'd be happy with an honest 1 HP per cu. in. - 151 HP at say 5000-5500 RPM. As Brian said, the limiting factor is the head. I don't have a cross-flow head like yours, which I believe flows much better. 200 HP would be nice, but that's equivalent to a 400 HP 302. To achieve that with a marginal head - even after porting - would probably require more cam, carb and compression than I'm willing to run. Or a turbocharger. I don't really know, I'm not an expert in these things at all.

I doubt if I will put the engine on a dyno to verify the numbers. I'm just doing what is proven to work in general performance build-ups that are applicable to any engine. In this case, somewhere between mild and wild, but closer to mild. Yeah, I know - BORING!

Rick and Paul,
What are your plans?
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