The 151 is worthy I think?

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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby NixVegaGT » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:34 am

Does the extra stroke make it a 3.0l? Damn that's a big 4. Fun. Great find with the headers. Those are for the non-crossflow, right? Pretty sweet.

Keep us posted.
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:04 pm

Yes, the 3.60" stroke with a 4.00" bore make a 181 cu. in. engine - 3.0 liters.
Yes, the header is for the non-cross flow head on this 1977 Pontiac Iron Duke engine.
I did a visual inspection in the engine compartment of the Sunbird - this is definitely the one.
I hope to get the Hooker installed after I resolve the rear axle problem on the Sunbird.
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby NixVegaGT » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:14 pm

Cool project, Tom. Looking forward to the progress updates.
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:30 pm

OK. After reading a bit on I-4 engines and their inherent vibration issues, longer connecting rods and lightweight pistons are better for reducing the 'shakes'.
So, the 181 cu. in. stroker with the shorter 5.7" rods is not a good solution.
I also found that this short rod/long stroke combo would put the piston too far down in the cylinder at BDC in the 151 block.
The 181 block is taller and apparently has longer cylinders.
So, using a 6.0" rod is mandatory. But the pistons mentioned above wouldn't work with its 1.600 Piston Compression Height.
A PCH of around 1.3 is needed.
Luckily, the same manufacturer has a good solution - flat-top, Chevrolet 350 V-8 pistons with a PCH of 1.261.
This puts the piston further down in the cylinder at TDC - .064 vs. .025 - but the static compression ratio is a more manageable 9.672 vs. 10.571.
An additional benefit is that these are also lighter weight, 475 grams vs. 578 grams.
http://kb-silvolite.com/test/kb_car/per ... ls&P_id=60.

Ideally, a 6.2" rod would be best but then the PCH would need to be around 1.125" - probably too short.
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby NixVegaGT » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:16 pm

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to try some of those "Honda" journal rods. I guess they are supposed to be light...

JE sells SBC pistons that would work that are only 1" tall. With the "Honda" journal you could offset grind to make up the difference and make the stroke 3.725" for a 190 ci. LOL! I guess technically you could potentially offset grind with the 6.125" honda rod and get somewhere around 195 ci. Almost 3.5l.
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby marco_1978_spyder » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:40 am

Looks like the marine engine uses the non crossflow stuff.

That goes along with what someone -who used to build up 2.5 motors for dirt track cars- said. They said the Non crossflow head was what you wanted if you were going to hot rod one.

One of these 181's would bolt into my Formula and look 100% stock. The 151 and manual transmission, was fun to drive, so the 181 would have been a fun upgrade, especially if the car was in showroom condition.
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:04 am

marco_1978_spyder wrote:Looks like the marine engine uses the non crossflow stuff.

That goes along with what someone -who used to build up 2.5 motors for dirt track cars- said. They said the Non crossflow head was what you wanted if you were going to hot rod one.
Marco,
The Pontiac Super Duty cross-flow aluminum head is worthy alternative.

Well, I've been trying to start my 77 Sunbird(no longer a "3-wheeler"), but the engine seems to be locked up. Sort of.
I took out the spark plugs and I can turn the engine by hand. But, it gets to a spot where it won't turn.
I can put a wrench on it and work it back and forth and then get it past this 'locked' spot. I can then turn it by hand again.
Could be some rust in the cylinder walls. So, I squirted some oil in there. I'll try again later.

I found out that the teeth on the cam gear tend to break off on this engine.
So, maybe that is the problem.
Regardless, I plan to rebuild the engine better than stock an need an alternative to this:
151TimingGear.jpg
151TimingGear.jpg (58.63 KiB) Viewed 2146 times


So, I started with the Cloyes web site and found a ductile iron cam gear and steel crank gear set - P/N 8-1018. Nice.
http://cloyes.mycarparts.com/products/4420
Cloyes_8-1018.jpg
Cloyes_8-1018.jpg (52.83 KiB) Viewed 2146 times


But, there is an aluminum cam gear on the 181 marine engine in a previous post in this thread (back a couple of pages).
The Chevrolet 230/250 I6 engine is listed as an application for the uses the same Cloyes P/N 8-1018.
So, searching the Cloyes website using a 65 Chevy Biscayne 230 L-6 reveals what I'm looking for - it's P/N 8-1016:
http://cloyes.mycarparts.com/products/4419
Cloyes_8-1016.jpg
Cloyes_8-1016.jpg (50.79 KiB) Viewed 2146 times


As a bonus, the gears are helical cut, so it will not be as noisy.
As a double bonus, this Cloyes 8-1016 gear set is also much cheaper than the Cloyes 8-1018 gear set!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-8-1016/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-8-1018/

From the images, the keyway in the cam gear are in different positions relative to the bolt holes.
I'll need to check it before I buy.
Now, where is my Schneider cam?
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby 72 SS PNL » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:03 am

res0o7eb wrote:
marco_1978_spyder wrote:Looks like the marine engine uses the non crossflow stuff.

That goes along with what someone -who used to build up 2.5 motors for dirt track cars- said. They said the Non crossflow head was what you wanted if you were going to hot rod one.
Marco,
The Pontiac Super Duty cross-flow aluminum head is worthy alternative.

Well, I've been trying to start my 77 Sunbird(no longer a "3-wheeler"), but the engine seems to be locked up. Sort of.
I took out the spark plugs and I can turn the engine by hand. But, it gets to a spot where it won't turn.
I can put a wrench on it and work it back and forth and then get it past this 'locked' spot. I can then turn it by hand again.
Could be some rust in the cylinder walls. So, I squirted some oil in there. I'll try again later.


I found out that the teeth on the cam gear tend to break off on this engine.
So, maybe that is the problem.
Regardless, I plan to rebuild the engine better than stock an need an alternative to this:
151TimingGear.jpg


So, I started with the Cloyes web site and found a ductile iron cam gear and steel crank gear set - P/N 8-1018. Nice.
http://cloyes.mycarparts.com/products/4420
Cloyes_8-1018.jpg


But, there is an aluminum cam gear on the 181 marine engine in a previous post in this thread (back a couple of pages).
The Chevrolet 230/250 I6 engine is listed as an application for the uses the same Cloyes P/N 8-1018.
So, searching the Cloyes website using a 65 Chevy Biscayne 230 L-6 reveals what I'm looking for - it's P/N 8-1016:
http://cloyes.mycarparts.com/products/4419
Cloyes_8-1016.jpg


As a bonus, the gears are helical cut, so it will not be as noisy.
As a double bonus, this Cloyes 8-1016 gear set is also much cheaper than the Cloyes 8-1018 gear set!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-8-1016/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-8-1018/

From the images, the keyway in the cam gear are in different positions relative to the bolt holes.
I'll need to check it before I buy.
Now, where is my Schneider cam?


kinda sounds more like a valve is hitting a piston to me
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 am

72 SS PNL wrote:kinda sounds more like a valve is hitting a piston to me
A dropped valve? I'll pull the cover.
A broken cam gear? I'll pull the engine - it's time. Finally, after sitting for 3 1/2 years - almost as long as this thread. :)
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby HI WINDING MONZA » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:13 pm

OMG, Tom's avatar is sporting new shoes and its up on all fours! :th: :lol:

Doug in Az 8)
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:23 pm

72 SS PNL wrote:kinda sounds more like a valve is hitting a piston to me
I was able to get the engine running again about a month ago. Still ran a bit rough, but the water pump didn't seem to be pumping water, so I shut it down. I have the front of the engine and engine bay all disassembled. There is some rusty sludge in the head and rusty water in the radiator. But the water in the block is clear. New water pump?
I found an aluminum water pump for the Chevrolet 192/230/250 L-6 - works on the 77-80 Pontiac 151. Here it is at Summit Racing for $31.95 - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GMB-1 ... el|SUNBIRD
Image

HI WINDING MONZA wrote:OMG, Tom's avatar is sporting new shoes and its up on all fours! :th: :lol:

Doug in Az 8)
Yes, the Sunbird is wearing newer 15x8 Snowflake, but older Radial T/A's - I posted something on the 5-lug Yukon axle swap back in December - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29255

Looks like Cloyes 2528S timing gear set may work, also. It's an aluminum cam gear, steel crank gear with helical teeth.
Different web sites list it for the Chevrolet 292 L-6 and 153 L-4, and Mercury Marine 181 cu. in. boat motor - yah, it'll do.
Image
I just grabbed a brand new Cloyes 2528S set off of ebay for $18.00 w/free shipping!
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby iowagold » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:01 am

I have a 1988 6000 with the iron duke in it..
I am thinking of selling the car. yes it still runs and is street able!
It has tbi.
It is a GM crate motor with only 100,000 miles on it.
runs great!!
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby NixVegaGT » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:00 am

Have you had a chance to build the 180 yet, Tom?
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Re: The 151 is worthy I think?

Postby res0o7eb » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:34 pm

No 151 stroker, yet Nix. WARNING, lame excuses follow. :cry:

Due to title issues with the state and code enforcement problems with the city, I really just need to get the 77 Sunbird roadworthy for now. That would help remove these 'distractions' that prevent me from really doing what I want with the car. I could solve the latter problem by just putting the Sunbird in the garage and pulling the engine for a rebuild. Solving the former issue requires mailing some paperwork, waiting 20 days, and then a driving (or towing) the car to the state patrol for an inspection. So, I am hesitant to do too many modifications until then. The '4-year', 5-lug rear conversion hasn't helped the situation either. Hence, my dilemma. Or my laziness. :oops:
I've got more lame excuses related to a personal injury, a cluttered garage, a broken daily driver, a house needing repairs, and the bad weather. But, I won't bore you with the details. That's enough lame stuff. Time to get going on this.

I think of this thread as a 'plan' for an engine build that anyone who is interested can do, follow and/or contribute.
Perhaps when I actually do something other than researching and buying parts, I'll start a thread in the Project Journal. 8)
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Re: CrankShafts

Postby res0o7eb » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:03 am

Here is a side-by-side picture of a 2.5 liter I-4 crankshaft(top) and the Mercruiser 181 cu. in. 'stroker' crankshaft(bottom).
Note the 181 (3.6 in. stroke) crankshaft is fully counter weighted.
The top crankshaft may be a Mercruiser 120 (2.5 liter) crankshaft - I am not sure anymore. It did not come out of any 151 cu. in. engine of mine. When I teardown the 151 in one of both of my Sunbirds, I'll post a picture of the crankshaft from one of them.
Attachments
181and151_Crankshafts.JPG
151(or 153 - not sure) cu. in. top and 181 cu. in. bottom.
181and151_Crankshafts.JPG (67.43 KiB) Viewed 1804 times
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