72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 6D9 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:25 pm

waybad wrote:do both!!! :th: :th:

Image


Looking killer and complicated lol!! Im still torn between the LS and SBC swap.
72 Vega GT...406 sbc..TH700R4...3.42 gear...235/60/15 MT DR's....11.54 at 118.6..Dad's car
72 Vega GT...4cyl..4 speed..all stock
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby waybad » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:48 pm

sbc is way easier,, if I would have done the sbc route,, It would have been on the road 4 years ago :shock:
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 6D9 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:51 am

waybad wrote:sbc is way easier,, if I would have done the sbc route,, It would have been on the road 4 years ago :shock:


Yeah I bet! Its tough because my dads set up works very well and very simple. I have a complete 406 too on the stand that just needs to be gone over....
72 Vega GT...406 sbc..TH700R4...3.42 gear...235/60/15 MT DR's....11.54 at 118.6..Dad's car
72 Vega GT...4cyl..4 speed..all stock
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby Boostedvega » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:09 am

waybad wrote:sbc is way easier,, if I would have done the sbc route,, It would have been on the road 4 years ago :shock:

Can you elaborate on this? im not familiar with SBC but LS swap to me is no different than swapping another v8. If anything its should be easier specially if your plans is fuel injected since the harness is practically a standalone. Not to mention you can pretty much buy a lot of aftermarket stuff for cheap.

Aside from wiring you do everything the same/similar anyways
wiring isnt all that complicated anymore either, theres good amount of write up available, not to mention a few youtube video on how to do a 3/4 wire hookup.

6D9 wrote:
monzaaddict wrote:You likely will have hood clearance issues with air cleaner and a stock hood. I can't see any way of running ac and ps together (pick one or the other). Powerbyace ls headers have the #8 tube going over frame which may affect turning radius. Hooker or cpp cast manifolds look like another option. If you have a non ac car the heater box will have to be spaced back on the inside and the cover in engine compartment modified for head/coil clearance. You need an ignition controller instead of a distributor. The oil pan will hang a lower than a stock v8 pan. You will need an electric fan instead of a engine driven fan.


Im good with all of the above. I think with the Holley carbed intake and deep drop base I have at home can get the hood to clear. No plans for a/c or p/s. Car will be street/strip car so streerring radius no biggie. My car is a factory a/c car so thats good. I like the MSD ignition box vs box/dizzy of the sbc. The modded camaro oil pan hopefully not too bad. Planned electric fan with either swap LS or SBC.

any particular reason why you dont want to run stock ls1/ls6 intake?


monzaaddict wrote:The ac system will have to come out if factory - no way anything other then the stock 4cyl will fit. I think with the ace mounts the engine will be lower in engine bay then other swaps done on this forum and like you said with the right air cleaner it may fit - or it still may not.


I feel like a lot of the ones you mentioned here and the above post is all just a matter of measuring. Im moving the engine back about 6" and i still have room to mount a vintage ac unit.
So i think theres definitely a way around things. LS has such a wide aftermarket support that you can practically buy mounting accessory that mounts them top down left etc.
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby waybad » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:45 am

waybad wrote:sbc is way easier,, if I would have done the sbc route,, It would have been on the road 4 years ago :shock:


At time I did mine, there were no companies offering any ls swap parts (mounts,headers,radiators, trans mount),, today there might be more offered? how well do they
work? all the problems had been worked out long ago for the sbc swap. I wanted the light weight of the all aluminum ls1, the sbc would have bolted right up and been running with a carb the same weekend,, just my 2cents :oops:
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby TimMcCabe » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:19 pm

I can back up what waybad is saying..

I put the Tuned Port in my Vega before the internet, it took a weekend to put the motor in, but another 6 months to figure out how to get the fuel injection working.
Once there are hundreds of H-bodies running around with LS power and all the bugs are worked out, then it might become a weekend swap because there will be a wealth of knowledge (and known parts that work) available.

Cheers,
Tim
1972 TPI Vega T56 6 speed

Contact me for all of your Tachometer needs
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 6D9 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:26 pm

I think if you do a carb set up with a traditional 3 speed auto the swap would be similar to a sbc. If it has efi and computer controlled trans things become more challenging.

I prefer the carb set up as thats what I know and am comfortable with for performance cars. Every time I do mods or change things up dont want to deal with a "retune" or needs different injectors, etc. But Im not totally against it and still could go the efi route.
72 Vega GT...406 sbc..TH700R4...3.42 gear...235/60/15 MT DR's....11.54 at 118.6..Dad's car
72 Vega GT...4cyl..4 speed..all stock
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby Boostedvega » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:32 am

6D9 wrote:I think if you do a carb set up with a traditional 3 speed auto the swap would be similar to a sbc. If it has efi and computer controlled trans things become more challenging.

I prefer the carb set up as thats what I know and am comfortable with for performance cars. Every time I do mods or change things up dont want to deal with a "retune" or needs different injectors, etc. But Im not totally against it and still could go the efi route.


once you go carb then yea it will be the same, except I dont know what you would do for ignition. (
The only time Ive used carb is when i swap a 302. and decided to do a turbo later and did a blow through set up.
Its simply for sure but tuning is terrible. Having to change jets got annoying quickly

as far as injectors go, plan ahead and you wont need to do that.
Injector swap is basically like swapping carb.
Out grow your carb and youl have to swap them out anyways.

as far as retune, the great thing about hptuners is that a few people offer email tunes for about 300 with free retune(2-3) it would be 100% on point as a dyno tune but cheap and simple. I can tell you first hand they can tune a turbo setup remotely.

for me go efi you wont regret it.

TimMcCabe wrote:I can back up what waybad is saying..

I put the Tuned Port in my Vega before the internet, it took a weekend to put the motor in, but another 6 months to figure out how to get the fuel injection working.
Once there are hundreds of H-bodies running around with LS power and all the bugs are worked out, then it might become a weekend swap because there will be a wealth of knowledge (and known parts that work) available.

Cheers,
Tim


a lot has change since the internet for sure. I remember back in 06 when i started getting into cars i had a hard time findind good info on "how to" now they are everywhere.

Ls harness in particular though are basically stand alone unit shouldnt take much to get running, not to mention tons of info online and support from other communities.

waybad wrote:
waybad wrote:sbc is way easier,, if I would have done the sbc route,, It would have been on the road 4 years ago :shock:


At time I did mine, there were no companies offering any ls swap parts (mounts,headers,radiators, trans mount),, today there might be more offered? how well do they
work? all the problems had been worked out long ago for the sbc swap. I wanted the light weight of the all aluminum ls1, the sbc would have bolted right up and been running with a carb the same weekend,, just my 2cents :oops:


Oh your talking about bolt on kits. I thought you mean putting the engine in.
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 6D9 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:46 pm

Boostedvega wrote:
6D9 wrote:I think if you do a carb set up with a traditional 3 speed auto the swap would be similar to a sbc. If it has efi and computer controlled trans things become more challenging.

I prefer the carb set up as thats what I know and am comfortable with for performance cars. Every time I do mods or change things up dont want to deal with a "retune" or needs different injectors, etc. But Im not totally against it and still could go the efi route.


once you go carb then yea it will be the same, except I dont know what you would do for ignition. (
The only time Ive used carb is when i swap a 302. and decided to do a turbo later and did a blow through set up.
Its simply for sure but tuning is terrible. Having to change jets got annoying quickly

as far as injectors go, plan ahead and you wont need to do that.
Injector swap is basically like swapping carb.
Out grow your carb and youl have to swap them out anyways.

as far as retune, the great thing about hptuners is that a few people offer email tunes for about 300 with free retune(2-3) it would be 100% on point as a dyno tune but cheap and simple. I can tell you first hand they can tune a turbo setup remotely.

for me go efi you wont regret it.

TimMcCabe wrote:I can back up what waybad is saying..

I put the Tuned Port in my Vega before the internet, it took a weekend to put the motor in, but another 6 months to figure out how to get the fuel injection working.
Once there are hundreds of H-bodies running around with LS power and all the bugs are worked out, then it might become a weekend swap because there will be a wealth of knowledge (and known parts that work) available.

Cheers,
Tim


a lot has change since the internet for sure. I remember back in 06 when i started getting into cars i had a hard time findind good info on "how to" now they are everywhere.

Ls harness in particular though are basically stand alone unit shouldnt take much to get running, not to mention tons of info online and support from other communities.

waybad wrote:
waybad wrote:sbc is way easier,, if I would have done the sbc route,, It would have been on the road 4 years ago :shock:


At time I did mine, there were no companies offering any ls swap parts (mounts,headers,radiators, trans mount),, today there might be more offered? how well do they
work? all the problems had been worked out long ago for the sbc swap. I wanted the light weight of the all aluminum ls1, the sbc would have bolted right up and been running with a carb the same weekend,, just my 2cents :oops:


Oh your talking about bolt on kits. I thought you mean putting the engine in.


When you go the carbed route going to do the MSD 6014 ignition box.
72 Vega GT...406 sbc..TH700R4...3.42 gear...235/60/15 MT DR's....11.54 at 118.6..Dad's car
72 Vega GT...4cyl..4 speed..all stock
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 1100kaw2 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:50 pm

Yea
What Tinker said. we built these long before this Ace guy showed up with all this bolt together stuff. Jeff Swartz's Flying Turd was the 1st pretty nice LS swap I remember catching my eye. He Provided me with a lot of intel.
I dont understand putting a Carb on an LS platform. The whole draw to Ls is the Simple fuel injection. and the overall design changes from the SBC that lend to its performance and efficency . No Carb SBC ever has made 350 plus HP and got 25MPG. Not even close. I know the LS Carb versions can do a little better. But still.......Why would you.?
Tinker..... I dont know about you, But looking back on it. I wish I had just sat on my Vega for the last 6 years and saved my $$$$$. Today we could just order up the stuff we spent tons of time fabricating and researching on ours. LOL We could build these things in a few months, instead of 4 or 5 years. HAHA.
I am very pleased with my LS. With todays info and product suport. I wouldnt bother putting a SBC in anything cool again if you gave me one.
No Comparison.
Just my .02
Darrell


72 LS-5spd.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33788
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby waybad » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:10 pm

Yeah, Darrell me too,, but where's the fun in that :bang: :bang: :bang:
I love mine now the way it is,, it looks factory, but it was a pain..... hell we could have bought one done for us probably for a lot less :shock:
I remember seeing a cosworth with a 5.3 for 11k I think,, would have saved time and money..lol
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby ScottieBell » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:42 am

Hey 6D9.
I'm in the middle of an LS swap now in my Monza. I was going to use the Ace stuff too, but decided to go with a front motor plate setup instead. The guy who had my car before me, used the hooker SBC setup and mounted the 350 from the front. When he did that, he took off all the original mounting provisions from the frame for the original V8 motor from the factory. Going with the ACE kit I needed to get all that stuff again, just to use his kit, and turned out to be ridiculously expensive. So, motor plate it is. There is a company called ICT billet, and they make a ton of billet aluminum LS stuff, and the prices are awesome. I have their pan, and I'll tell you, it is a work of art! All polished billet and tig welded.You will need to run an oil filter relocation kit to use their pan though. For me, I didn't mind that at all. I’m also using their motor plates, Valley cover, water pump adapters, and a few other things. I'll post some pics of their stuff if I can. I am also going the carb route, as that’s what I know. I also want the old-school air filter look, but the better performance of an LS.
I got an LM4 engine. It is a 5.3, which is also all aluminum. They are rated at 290HP, and used in some SUV's such as the standard trailblazer, Isuzu ascender and Buick Rainiers’. I got the motor for 600.00 plus tax, cheaper than the L33 as it's more sought after than the LM4. It's like no one realizes they put these motors in those other SUV's. I haven't mounted the motor yet, as I am just shy of the rest of the motor parts I want, before I set it in. I have been told by a few different people that the trailblazer exhaust manifolds will also work for the exhaust in the h-body cars, though I can’t confirm that yet. They do look to me that they'd work great though. I am running a big block Chevy electric water pump, to get rid of some rotational drag and weight from the giant LS water pump setup off that motor. You'll need water pump adapters, which I also got from ICT Billet. They also have a nice billet aluminum valley cover, since you won’t be needing knock sensors anymore with the carb setup. For the ignition, I'm running an MSD 6LS box, # 6010 for the 24 tooth reluctor wheel.
If you think about it, you take a stock 290 HP ls motor, and hit it with a 150 shot which will live forever if you tune it correctly and you have a super cheap 440 HP motor in a 2700 pound car. I'm upgrading some stuff, like head studs, trunion upgrade and cam, and will being running a 200 Shot plate system. Looking for around a 400 to 425 RWHP monza. Should make me giggle ok. The initial money you spend is a little hard to swallow, at least for me since i have giant child support payments, but once you have all the stuff you can blow up an ls one weekend and have another $600 junkyard motor in there the following. I know guys running 250 shots in these motors, for years, and their still running great. Which ever direction you go, that's a super nice car to start with. Love your pops car too!

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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 6D9 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:00 pm

ScottieBell wrote:Hey 6D9.
I'm in the middle of an LS swap now in my Monza. I was going to use the Ace stuff too, but decided to go with a front motor plate setup instead. The guy who had my car before me, used the hooker SBC setup and mounted the 350 from the front. When he did that, he took off all the original mounting provisions from the frame for the original V8 motor from the factory. Going with the ACE kit I needed to get all that stuff again, just to use his kit, and turned out to be ridiculously expensive. So, motor plate it is. There is a company called ICT billet, and they make a ton of billet aluminum LS stuff, and the prices are awesome. I have their pan, and I'll tell you, it is a work of art! All polished billet and tig welded.You will need to run an oil filter relocation kit to use their pan though. For me, I didn't mind that at all. I’m also using their motor plates, Valley cover, water pump adapters, and a few other things. I'll post some pics of their stuff if I can. I am also going the carb route, as that’s what I know. I also want the old-school air filter look, but the better performance of an LS.
I got an LM4 engine. It is a 5.3, which is also all aluminum. They are rated at 290HP, and used in some SUV's such as the standard trailblazer, Isuzu ascender and Buick Rainiers’. I got the motor for 600.00 plus tax, cheaper than the L33 as it's more sought after than the LM4. It's like no one realizes they put these motors in those other SUV's. I haven't mounted the motor yet, as I am just shy of the rest of the motor parts I want, before I set it in. I have been told by a few different people that the trailblazer exhaust manifolds will also work for the exhaust in the h-body cars, though I can’t confirm that yet. They do look to me that they'd work great though. I am running a big block Chevy electric water pump, to get rid of some rotational drag and weight from the giant LS water pump setup off that motor. You'll need water pump adapters, which I also got from ICT Billet. They also have a nice billet aluminum valley cover, since you won’t be needing knock sensors anymore with the carb setup. For the ignition, I'm running an MSD 6LS box, # 6010 for the 24 tooth reluctor wheel.
If you think about it, you take a stock 290 HP ls motor, and hit it with a 150 shot which will live forever if you tune it correctly and you have a super cheap 440 HP motor in a 2700 pound car. I'm upgrading some stuff, like head studs, trunion upgrade and cam, and will being running a 200 Shot plate system. Looking for around a 400 to 425 RWHP monza. Should make me giggle ok. The initial money you spend is a little hard to swallow, at least for me since i have giant child support payments, but once you have all the stuff you can blow up an ls one weekend and have another $600 junkyard motor in there the following. I know guys running 250 shots in these motors, for years, and their still running great. Which ever direction you go, that's a super nice car to start with. Love your pops car too!

IMG_2519.JPG

IMG_2496.JPG

IMG_2517.JPG

IMG_2515.JPG


Thanks Scott for posting!! Not a whole bunch of action on this site so its nice to get responses about this swap. I like your ideas and I have a similar mind set on what I want from the car as you do! My car is all stock so the ACE 4cyl mounts probably the best route(easy). I was planning to uses his headers as well or maybe the new Hooker cast manifolds if they would fit. Planning on doing the new 6014 box as it has a few more features and only a bit more expensive. Whats you plans for a transmission?? Im thinking about a 4L80E with the little black box for man control...not sure yet. Please keep me posted on your swap. I will update this as well...Ron
72 Vega GT...406 sbc..TH700R4...3.42 gear...235/60/15 MT DR's....11.54 at 118.6..Dad's car
72 Vega GT...4cyl..4 speed..all stock
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby monzaaddict » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:24 am

Monza's were originally supposed to have a rotary engine. When that was cancelled they shoehorned the sbc in. To get the sbc in they shifted the engine back as close to firewall as possible to allow fan and steering box clearance. They shifted the engine to the passenger side for steering shaft and power booster clearance. The v8 monza pan was necessary to allowed the the driveline angle to be maintained, provide inner tie rod clearance when turning and hood clearance. They also had a up sweep exhaust manifold on the drivers side for steering shaft clearance.

http://www.engineswapdepot.com/?p=2913
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2FBjpgbi8

Powerbyace mounts will situate the crank centerline and bellhousing mounting face close to where gm located the sbc in a Monza. I think for the same reasons the ace parts are the best option. You need steering clearance, electric fan clearance, centerlink/tie rod end clearance, hood clearance.

whether the hooker manifolds will work is to be determined but they look like they may. I think that with the ace parts the only place I see that would be tight is where the steering coupler is.

The ls1 cosworth does not use ace mounts and appears to have the engine close to centered. It is also a few inches way from the firewall. Hooker manifolds are used. A colorado/h3 hummer pan with a modified sump is used. The steering box is the smaller standard vega box. The steering shaft has heims and a reduced size coupler. If the engine was further to the passenger side and lower the steering shaft might clear with hooker manifolds. The car has the smaller standard vega steering box. If the engine were further to the passenger side and back towards the firewall the coupler looks like it will clear exhaust manifold. Its real close. shifting the engine back will also help with clearance around exhaust manifold outlets.

The video of the orange cosworth which also does not use ace mounts (but does use ace headers) has the larger cosworth vega steering box .

With a corvette water pump ( or even possibly with the ls1 camaro water pump) I think you could use a bolt in v8 vega radiator and electric fan and cool an ls1. No need to cut core support and move radiator forward. the yellow cosworth looks like it has the champion vega radiator and I believe the engine is a 6.0 litre.

this is bills monza.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-h ... -swap.html

He is using stock monza mounts with adapters (I think) I am guessing he has spacers under the mounts for oil pan clearance. I tried messaging him for more info but he hasn't replied. The engine is basically in the same location as a stock v8 except maybe higher for oil pan clearance. You can see steering shaft clearance . I have no idea if the headers shown actually fit on passenger side.

these look like the headers bill has
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Exhaust-Header- ... kv&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-04-CHEVROL ... fQ&vxp=mtr

Plating over the heater box, using with manual brakes and the small standard vega steering box will all help with clearance issues

more pics
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=32760&p=190050#p190050

I'm sure you saw this. there are some good links at the bottom with various swaps. (none use ace mounts).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33358
Last edited by monzaaddict on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 72 Vega GT Project Loco Moco

Postby 6D9 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:01 pm

monzaaddict wrote:Monza's were originally supposed to have a rotary engine. When that was cancelled they shoehorned the sbc in. To get the sbc in they shifted the engine back as close to firewall as possible to allow fan and steering box clearance. They shifted the engine to the passenger side for steering shaft and power booster clearance. The v8 monza pan was necessary to allowed the the driveline angle to be maintained, provide inner tie rod clearance when turning and hood clearance. They also had a up sweep exhaust manifold on the drivers side for steering shaft clearance.

http://www.engineswapdepot.com/?p=2913
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2FBjpgbi8

Powerbyace mounts will situate the engine crank centerline and bellhousing mounting face close to where gm located the sbc in a Monza. I think for the same reasons they ace parts are the best option. You need steering clearance, electric fan clearance, centerlink clearance, hood clearance.

whether the hooker manifolds will work is to be determined but they look like they may. I think that with the ace parts the only place I see that would be tight is where the steering coupler is.

The ls1 cosworth does not use ace mounts and appears to have the engine close to centered. It is also a few inches way from the firewall. Hooker manifolds are used. A colorado/h3 hummer pan with a modified sump is used. The steering box is the smaller standard vega box. The steering shaft has heims and a reduced size coupler. If the engine was further to the passenger side and lower the steering shaft might clear with hooker manifolds. The car has the smaller standard vega steering box. If the engine were further to the passenger side and back towards the firewall the coupler looks like it will clear exhaust manifold. Its real close. shifting the engine back will also help with clearance around exhaust manifold outlets.

The video of the orange cosworth which also does not use ace mounts (but does use ace headers) has the larger cosworth vega steering box .

With a corvette water pump ( or even possibly with the ls1 camaro water pump) I think you could use a bolt in v8 vega radiator and electric fan and cool an ls1. No need to cut core support and move radiator forward. the yellow cosworth looks like it has the champion vega radiator and i believe the engine is a 6.0 litre.

this is bills monza.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-h ... -swap.html

He is using stock monza mounts with adapters (I think) I am guessing he has spacers under the mounts for oil pan clearance. I tried messaging him for more info but he hasn't replied. The engine is basically in the same location as a stock v8 except maybe higher for oil pan clearance. You can see steering shaft clearance . I have no idea if the headers shown actually fit on passenger side.

these look like the headers bill has
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Exhaust-Header- ... kv&vxp=mtr

Plating over the heater box, using with manual brakes and the small standard vega steering box will all help with clearance issues

more pics
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=32760&p=190050#p190050

I'm sure you saw this. there are some good links at the bottom witth various swaps. (none use ace mounts).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33358



Great info thanks for posting!!! I will be going thru it all for sure.
72 Vega GT...406 sbc..TH700R4...3.42 gear...235/60/15 MT DR's....11.54 at 118.6..Dad's car
72 Vega GT...4cyl..4 speed..all stock
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