From: mldwyer_99_REMOVE_109569_THIS_@yahoo.com
The CV shop manual indicates the in-tank fuel
pump is similar to other vega pumps. The Borg/Warner
Fuel Pump catalog # FP-97 list the 1975 - 76 Vega pump
as their pump # P1. Specs.: 4.4 - 6.5 PSI / 33 - 37
GPM. In larger engines, 262 - 350 in monzas, B/W lists
part # P2. Same PSI and Flow specs.
As for the
external high pressure pump, (Don't ridicule me, it is
still a Bosch unit, the part #EP7231 has a PSI rating
of 110 and 26 GPH. It's application calls for an
operating pressure of 36 PSI. The pressure regulator will
adjust the difference. Why the disclaimer, The
application is for: VW Transporter and Porsche.
Mike
[This is message #1297 by user mldwyer_99 on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
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Fuel pumps
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Fuel pumps
by h-bot » Fri Mar 03, 2000 1:42 pm
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Fuel pumps
by h-bot » Fri Mar 03, 2000 2:16 pm
From: doctorduke_REMOVE_469562_THIS_@yahoo.com
GM specs for in tank fuel pumps lists a higher
pressure for V-8s than the 140, and the CV feed pump is in
between. It's interesting that the BW catalog shows the
same pressure/flow for the P1 and P2. I suspect it's
and error. Most use a P2, but either should work. I
doubt if either would reach max pressure as the CV fuel
system flows 33 gallons per hour. This is based upon the
high pressure pump rating of 33 gal per hour at 39 psi
and 13.5 volts. Prototype CVs were built without an
in tank pump, but it was added to solve a vapor lock
problem.
Don't understand your second paragraph. Are you saying
that BW offers a replacement high pressure pump,
EP7231? CVOA recently found a vendor who can rebuild the
Bosch pumps. The price is about $65.
doctorduke
[This is message #1298 by user doctorduke on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
GM specs for in tank fuel pumps lists a higher
pressure for V-8s than the 140, and the CV feed pump is in
between. It's interesting that the BW catalog shows the
same pressure/flow for the P1 and P2. I suspect it's
and error. Most use a P2, but either should work. I
doubt if either would reach max pressure as the CV fuel
system flows 33 gallons per hour. This is based upon the
high pressure pump rating of 33 gal per hour at 39 psi
and 13.5 volts. Prototype CVs were built without an
in tank pump, but it was added to solve a vapor lock
problem.
Don't understand your second paragraph. Are you saying
that BW offers a replacement high pressure pump,
EP7231? CVOA recently found a vendor who can rebuild the
Bosch pumps. The price is about $65.
doctorduke
[This is message #1298 by user doctorduke on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
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Fuel pumps
by h-bot » Fri Mar 03, 2000 5:01 pm
From: mldwyer_99_REMOVE_900781_THIS_@yahoo.com
Duke,
My post was prompted by an earlier post
in which a member adapted an in-tank pump, and
bypassed the external high pressure fuel pump. The Fiero
V-6 pump he used specs at 75 - 85 PSI and regulated
flow of 26 - 30 GPH. I may be wrong, however, the CV
in-tank pump supplies fuel, as a "boost" pump at low
pressure to the high pressure pump. After the car sits for
a period of time, the fuel could drain from the
line between the high pressure pump and the pickup in
the tank. This would cause a period of time to pass
before fuel was sucked into the high pressure pump at
start up. The low pressure pump fills this
void.
The high pressure pump information is for those with
a non rebuidable pump and is not a stock
replacement, but, could work. The B/W pump #7231 is low on
flow, sorry, back to the specs...
CV Supplement,
page 0-7, high pressure pump developes up to 90 PSI
and flows 32 GPH at operating pressure of 39 PSI. The
CV EFI Trouble Shooting guide, page 15, charts fuel
pressure requirements of 37 to 42 PSI at W.O.T. decending
to 27 to 32 PSI at cruise, and 27 - 32 PSI under
deceleration. Reviewing all these requirements. There seem to
be at least 6 pumps meeting these specs. They range
from 90 to 109 PSI at rated regulated flows of 35 to
41 GPH, depending on the pump. (Used in various
Alfas, BMWs, Jags, Volvos, MBZs, Fiats, Opels, Renaults,
Peugeot, and Cadillac.) Average cost: $180.00. My belief
is the engine does not demand the full flow of the
pump, but the pump is designed to flow an excess of
fuel to insure adequet supply to the system and the
circulation of fuel back through the tank helps to cool the
fuel and avoid vapor lock.
Whew!~
Mike
Dwyer
[This is message #1301 by user mldwyer_99 on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
Duke,
My post was prompted by an earlier post
in which a member adapted an in-tank pump, and
bypassed the external high pressure fuel pump. The Fiero
V-6 pump he used specs at 75 - 85 PSI and regulated
flow of 26 - 30 GPH. I may be wrong, however, the CV
in-tank pump supplies fuel, as a "boost" pump at low
pressure to the high pressure pump. After the car sits for
a period of time, the fuel could drain from the
line between the high pressure pump and the pickup in
the tank. This would cause a period of time to pass
before fuel was sucked into the high pressure pump at
start up. The low pressure pump fills this
void.
The high pressure pump information is for those with
a non rebuidable pump and is not a stock
replacement, but, could work. The B/W pump #7231 is low on
flow, sorry, back to the specs...
CV Supplement,
page 0-7, high pressure pump developes up to 90 PSI
and flows 32 GPH at operating pressure of 39 PSI. The
CV EFI Trouble Shooting guide, page 15, charts fuel
pressure requirements of 37 to 42 PSI at W.O.T. decending
to 27 to 32 PSI at cruise, and 27 - 32 PSI under
deceleration. Reviewing all these requirements. There seem to
be at least 6 pumps meeting these specs. They range
from 90 to 109 PSI at rated regulated flows of 35 to
41 GPH, depending on the pump. (Used in various
Alfas, BMWs, Jags, Volvos, MBZs, Fiats, Opels, Renaults,
Peugeot, and Cadillac.) Average cost: $180.00. My belief
is the engine does not demand the full flow of the
pump, but the pump is designed to flow an excess of
fuel to insure adequet supply to the system and the
circulation of fuel back through the tank helps to cool the
fuel and avoid vapor lock.
Whew!~
Mike
Dwyer
[This is message #1301 by user mldwyer_99 on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
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Fuel pumps
by h-bot » Sat Mar 04, 2000 10:09 am
From: cozwurth_REMOVE_121935_THIS_@yahoo.com
-snip-
Duke,
My post was prompted by an
earlier post in which a member adapted an in-tank pump,
and bypassed the external high pressure fuel pump.
The Fiero V-6 pump he used specs at 75 - 85 PSI and
regulated flow of 26 - 30 GPH. I may be wrong, however, the
CV in-tank pump supplies fuel, as a "boost" pump at
low pressure to the high pressure pump. After the car
sits for a period of time, the fuel could drain from
the line between the high pressure pump and the
pickup in the tank. This would cause a period of time to
pass before fuel was sucked into the high pressure
pump at start up. The low pressure pump fills this
void.
-snip-
Mike,
When I was looking for an alternative to the high
pressure pump on my Cosworth, I looked first for another
external pump that would fit the bill. The few that I
found were out of my price range (at the time, I was a
full time college student working part time at an auto
parts store for just over minimum wage). Since I could
not afford the external pumps, I started looking for
an internal pump that would supply the right amount
of fuel and was designed for use in a high pressure
system. I used the same CV sources as you did to
determine the requirements of the CV fuel system. The fuel
pump for the V-6 Fiero seemed to be the closest thing
to what I needed to get the car back on the road. It
was almost identical dimensionally to the stock
in-tank pump (only about 3/8-1/2" longer, if I remember
correctly) and very close to the stock external pump in
operating pressures and flow rate. I know the actual
operating pressure is determined by the regulator, but the
pump must be capable of developing enough pressure to
make the system work. My price to fix the problem:
$60, and the pump has a lifetime warranty to boot. I
don't think anyone was re-building the stock external
pumps when mine went bad back in 1991. It took me only
a couple of hours to install the pump, and it
worked fine for the type of driving I was doing. Even
though I never raced it on a closed course like Duke
does, I did wind her up more than once late at night on
some back roads and never felt a drop in power from
fuel starvation, and my plugs always looked good. (It
didn't use a quart of oil every 300-400 miles, either.
Only about 1/2 quart between 2000 mile changes)
Now
that there is someone who rebuilds the stock pump,
I'll probably get both of mine rebuilt for use
sometime in the future. I still like the idea of only
having to worry about one fuel pump working, not two.
Only a Cosworth "Expert" would even notice that my car
did not have the external pump installed, especially
since I fitted a hard fuel line to take the place of
the external pump and left all of the brackets and
sheilding in place. That setup worked fine for me for over
two years. My wife totaled the car in Dec '93 during
an ice storm.
Dave "Cozwurth"
CV# 0646 &
the ghost of CV# 1009
[This is message #1310 by user cozwurth on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
-snip-
Duke,
My post was prompted by an
earlier post in which a member adapted an in-tank pump,
and bypassed the external high pressure fuel pump.
The Fiero V-6 pump he used specs at 75 - 85 PSI and
regulated flow of 26 - 30 GPH. I may be wrong, however, the
CV in-tank pump supplies fuel, as a "boost" pump at
low pressure to the high pressure pump. After the car
sits for a period of time, the fuel could drain from
the line between the high pressure pump and the
pickup in the tank. This would cause a period of time to
pass before fuel was sucked into the high pressure
pump at start up. The low pressure pump fills this
void.
-snip-
Mike,
When I was looking for an alternative to the high
pressure pump on my Cosworth, I looked first for another
external pump that would fit the bill. The few that I
found were out of my price range (at the time, I was a
full time college student working part time at an auto
parts store for just over minimum wage). Since I could
not afford the external pumps, I started looking for
an internal pump that would supply the right amount
of fuel and was designed for use in a high pressure
system. I used the same CV sources as you did to
determine the requirements of the CV fuel system. The fuel
pump for the V-6 Fiero seemed to be the closest thing
to what I needed to get the car back on the road. It
was almost identical dimensionally to the stock
in-tank pump (only about 3/8-1/2" longer, if I remember
correctly) and very close to the stock external pump in
operating pressures and flow rate. I know the actual
operating pressure is determined by the regulator, but the
pump must be capable of developing enough pressure to
make the system work. My price to fix the problem:
$60, and the pump has a lifetime warranty to boot. I
don't think anyone was re-building the stock external
pumps when mine went bad back in 1991. It took me only
a couple of hours to install the pump, and it
worked fine for the type of driving I was doing. Even
though I never raced it on a closed course like Duke
does, I did wind her up more than once late at night on
some back roads and never felt a drop in power from
fuel starvation, and my plugs always looked good. (It
didn't use a quart of oil every 300-400 miles, either.
Only about 1/2 quart between 2000 mile changes)
Now
that there is someone who rebuilds the stock pump,
I'll probably get both of mine rebuilt for use
sometime in the future. I still like the idea of only
having to worry about one fuel pump working, not two.
Only a Cosworth "Expert" would even notice that my car
did not have the external pump installed, especially
since I fitted a hard fuel line to take the place of
the external pump and left all of the brackets and
sheilding in place. That setup worked fine for me for over
two years. My wife totaled the car in Dec '93 during
an ice storm.
Dave "Cozwurth"
CV# 0646 &
the ghost of CV# 1009
[This is message #1310 by user cozwurth on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
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fuel pumps
by h-bot » Wed May 16, 2001 10:17 pm
From: tehutton_REMOVE_381331_THIS_@yahoo.com
OK, guys. Went through my receipts. In Dec. 1992,
I replaced in-tank pump with a Standard Products
225S17. Price on the receipt was $6.24. Could be sock
only? I noted on the receipt that instruction sheet
said AC-Delco on it. In Jan. 1993, I replaced the HP
pump with a Bosch unit GFP296. It was a direct
replacement
[This is message #5486 by user tehutton on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
OK, guys. Went through my receipts. In Dec. 1992,
I replaced in-tank pump with a Standard Products
225S17. Price on the receipt was $6.24. Could be sock
only? I noted on the receipt that instruction sheet
said AC-Delco on it. In Jan. 1993, I replaced the HP
pump with a Bosch unit GFP296. It was a direct
replacement
[This is message #5486 by user tehutton on Yahoo! Club Cosworth Vegas: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cosworthvegas ]
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- Posts: 53214
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:30 am
- Location: cyberspace
fuel pumps
by h-bot » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:54 am
From: ssafstro_REMOVE_803132_THIS_@yahoo.com
When my tank gets below 1/4 tank it lets me know, by gettin noisy.
Is it safe to say that any electric pump would do the job short of
the in & out fittings., or does the cv pump have a specific rate
of flow ???? I know it would be easier to fit on a direct replacement
but what if......just a thought....
steve
cv3122
[This is message #10512 by user ssafstro on Yahoo! Group Cosworth Vegas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosworthvegas ]
When my tank gets below 1/4 tank it lets me know, by gettin noisy.
Is it safe to say that any electric pump would do the job short of
the in & out fittings., or does the cv pump have a specific rate
of flow ???? I know it would be easier to fit on a direct replacement
but what if......just a thought....
steve
cv3122
[This is message #10512 by user ssafstro on Yahoo! Group Cosworth Vegas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosworthvegas ]
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- Posts: 53214
- Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:30 am
- Location: cyberspace
fuel pumps
by h-bot » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:46 pm
From: markrock_REMOVE_297342_THIS_@yahoo.com
Steve:
The answer is, ahem, also in Tips and Tricks. Unfortunately I'm not
handy to my copy now.
Also, and I'm not trying to be smart, every electric (and I assume
every mechanical) fuel pump has design specs for fuel flow and fuel
pressure.
I seem to recall the Cosworth's HP pump being spec'd to provide 39-43
psi under load, and don't recall the gph. If you research the part
numbers I posted earlier, you will undoubtedly find the specs on
those pumps, and they will be in the ballpark of the specs of the
stock pump.
Are there other pumps that can be made to work. Absolutely. A Fiero
in tank high pressure pump has even been made to work. The keys are
the pressure and flow, and whatever provides it, including hamsters
in a wheel, will work. <grin--I like that image>
As these cars get older and more valuable, originality will become
more and more meaningful. Accordingly I would (and will on #0307
which needs a new unit) stay with the stock pump.
As an aside, I'm working on a Cosworth gas tank now. I used a cutoff
wheel to carefully separate the top from the bottom (so I can mig
weld it back together when I am done, and then seal it with Bill
Hirsch's Gas Tank Sealer). I have thus been able to examine the
innards carefully. If you look at Photo Gallery/Interior at the
www.cosworthvega.com site, you will see a shot of this tank taken by
dangling my digital camera inside! Totally rusted.
When I opened the tank and sand blasted the interior, I saw the
design of the reservoir that the pickup sock sits in. It is brazed
to the bottom of the tank. It is filled by two 1/4" holes in the
bottom that access two 1/2" wide but shallow channels to the edges.
Those channels were totally plugged with rust and gunk. If this tank
ever worked, once the fuel got below the lip of the reservoir the
fuel pumps would starve. When starved, the high pressure pump would
run dry, the rollers inside would lose their lubrication and cooling,
and the pump would eventually burn up. I doubt that boiling out a
tank like this would ever open these channels.
If your pump is singing at low fuel levels, it is beginning to go
bad, IMHO, and these channels may be partially or completely
plugged. I would be careful to maintain a fuel level above the lip
of the reservoir so as not to starve the pump.
I'll be doing an article on this tank and posting it on the website
in the future. In the meantime if anybody wants a sneak preview of
the pictures, send me an e-mail.
Mark
[This is message #10514 by user markrock on Yahoo! Group Cosworth Vegas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosworthvegas ]
Steve:
The answer is, ahem, also in Tips and Tricks. Unfortunately I'm not
handy to my copy now.
Also, and I'm not trying to be smart, every electric (and I assume
every mechanical) fuel pump has design specs for fuel flow and fuel
pressure.
I seem to recall the Cosworth's HP pump being spec'd to provide 39-43
psi under load, and don't recall the gph. If you research the part
numbers I posted earlier, you will undoubtedly find the specs on
those pumps, and they will be in the ballpark of the specs of the
stock pump.
Are there other pumps that can be made to work. Absolutely. A Fiero
in tank high pressure pump has even been made to work. The keys are
the pressure and flow, and whatever provides it, including hamsters
in a wheel, will work. <grin--I like that image>
As these cars get older and more valuable, originality will become
more and more meaningful. Accordingly I would (and will on #0307
which needs a new unit) stay with the stock pump.
As an aside, I'm working on a Cosworth gas tank now. I used a cutoff
wheel to carefully separate the top from the bottom (so I can mig
weld it back together when I am done, and then seal it with Bill
Hirsch's Gas Tank Sealer). I have thus been able to examine the
innards carefully. If you look at Photo Gallery/Interior at the
www.cosworthvega.com site, you will see a shot of this tank taken by
dangling my digital camera inside! Totally rusted.
When I opened the tank and sand blasted the interior, I saw the
design of the reservoir that the pickup sock sits in. It is brazed
to the bottom of the tank. It is filled by two 1/4" holes in the
bottom that access two 1/2" wide but shallow channels to the edges.
Those channels were totally plugged with rust and gunk. If this tank
ever worked, once the fuel got below the lip of the reservoir the
fuel pumps would starve. When starved, the high pressure pump would
run dry, the rollers inside would lose their lubrication and cooling,
and the pump would eventually burn up. I doubt that boiling out a
tank like this would ever open these channels.
If your pump is singing at low fuel levels, it is beginning to go
bad, IMHO, and these channels may be partially or completely
plugged. I would be careful to maintain a fuel level above the lip
of the reservoir so as not to starve the pump.
I'll be doing an article on this tank and posting it on the website
in the future. In the meantime if anybody wants a sneak preview of
the pictures, send me an e-mail.
Mark
[This is message #10514 by user markrock on Yahoo! Group Cosworth Vegas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosworthvegas ]
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