Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

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Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby herkey43 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:38 pm

I am running a 74 Vega Kammback with a hopped up early 350 SBC. Currently I have a TH400 that works nice. I want to convert to a BW T5. Real Hot Rods are better with a clutch, besides running 3000 RPM at 60 mph is too much drama, and tough on the temp gauge. I found a complete pedal, pulley, cable, arm assembly for my originally 4 speed car. Ebay has a few V8 monza bell housings for about $150, so I can use the Cable setup. Okay, this sounds easy, but here are my questions.
. What should I look out for setting up the cable/bellhousing?
. Can I use my existing flywheel?
. Which T5 should I look for?
....World class or No?
....What are the differences with shifter position?
. Can I use my TH400 tranny mount?
Thanx in advance... You guys rock :!:
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby avewhtboy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:50 am

I switched from a TH350 to a World Class T5 from a early 90's Camaro. I used hydraulic rather than the cable system.

The T5 is mounted at an angle so if you dont use that bellhousing and use the 4 speed bellhousing I think your shifter would not be where you want it.

In that case you may want to buy and aftermarket Tremec five speed.

I bought a Wilwood master cylinder plumbed to the factory external slave cylinder on the T5.

Something to consider for that. I had to replace my Hooker headers for a set of shorty Sandersons otherwise the external slave cylinder would not fit.

If you have the Don hardy headers they may not pose any problem to the external slave cylinder.
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby herkey43 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:20 pm

I was originally planning a hydraulic setup, and had several ideas. After seeing your build, which is amazing, :shock: I decided firewall mods and moving the fuse box was more than I wanted to do to an otherwise finished car. If there is such a thing as a Pull actuated master cylinder, a cable could be used to operate it. Have not seen any such device.
-- I have seen some chatter about the shifter orientation on the T5 and got the impression there were some variations. maybe not. The Trimec TKO is the ultimate box for me, but would cost about $1K more.
-- I see that '86-'88 Camaro etc. used a cable clutch setup. Has anyone used that bell housing/cable setup? would that improve the orientation of the T5?
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby herkey43 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:57 pm

I see that there are clutch cables available for 86-88 camaro, but the bell housings on eBay are all setup for hydraulic. Hmmm...
Yes, I see that a T5 bell housing is rotated about 15 deg CCW for mount surface.
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby 283vega » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:08 pm

speedway lists a pull hydralic cylinder for clutch setups
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby avewhtboy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:51 pm

herkey43 wrote:I was originally planning a hydraulic setup, and had several ideas. After seeing your build, which is amazing, :shock: I decided firewall mods and moving the fuse box was more than I wanted to do to an otherwise finished car. If there is such a thing as a Pull actuated master cylinder, a cable could be used to operate it. Have not seen any such device.
-- I have seen some chatter about the shifter orientation on the T5 and got the impression there were some variations. maybe not. The Trimec TKO is the ultimate box for me, but would cost about $1K more.
-- I see that '86-'88 Camaro etc. used a cable clutch setup. Has anyone used that bell housing/cable setup? would that improve the orientation of the T5?



I forgot about the mods to the fusebox, My car has a painless harness with the fusebox in a different location so it wasn't in the way. I think you can squeeze a clutch master
cylinder in there without moving the fuse box if you get right one. There are some really small master cylinders out there if you look around.

You need to update your project journal because it appears you are further along than your journal shows!

Looking forward to updates
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby monzaaddict » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:30 pm

a cable operated hydraulic clutch master cylinder is possible but in my opinion it is just ugly. You would need to make a new end for the monza/vega cable that fit the assembly. https://www.innovativemounts.com/Produc ... Code=41001

you could also likely adapt the mcleod mustang cable to hydraulic conversion kits for fox body mustangs. Again you would have to adapt the stock clutch cable end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc-B_ih-ZQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmiSRKVef2k

you can adapt the ls1 f body master like shown here in grandam75's project journal (this is my preference and I am working on a firewall bracket right now. see picture below.)
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=26198&start=45

if you had the 76 up pedal assembly you also MAY be able to build a bracket that mounts the master up under the dash. I really do not know if there is even room for this and would imagine it would be difficult to service.
http://www.b20vtec.com/forums/threads/5 ... t-the-swap
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby herkey43 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:27 pm

I knew this would get complicated. So, to review my options.
1. Use OEM Clutch setup, Monza Bell Housing. 4 Speed box. Not what I want. T5 would be wrong orientation.
2. Use OEM Clutch setup, Monza Bell Housing.. Trimec TKO 5 Speed. Cost about $1,000 more than a fresh T5.
3. Build Hydraulic Clutch setup, T5 style bell housing, Hydraulic throwout bearing, T5 Box.
This brings me back to where I was, inventing a hydraulic clutch. ...before the simplicity of a cable distracted me.

Here are a couple sketches thinking about a mechanical linkage to a push type master. I can think of several reasons this is not a good design. Mostly because the pushrod would flex over the 15" length.

Image
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby monzaaddict » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:08 am

a camaro t5 can have the tailhousing changed to a s10 version. That will solve the orientaion issues and move the shifter forward closer to where your stock shifter was. You can use the monza bellhousing. Get crossmember from powerbyace. I would convert to a hydraulic clutch with internal hydraulic clutch release bearing but you could just keep the stock cable.

https://www.google.com/search?q=t5+s10+ ... 24&bih=667

http://www.powerbyace.com/

I think the best solution for a hydraulic conversion is the way grandam75 did it in his Vega You can use a stock gm 3/4" plastic master for a 98-02 Camaro. (about $50 or less) http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=ls ... r&_sacat=0. You will need these -4 an adapters http://www.ebay.com/itm/331423849295?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT. Cut the end off the pushrod and thread it for 3/8"-24 thread. Use QA1 AFR5-6 rod end which has a 5/16" bore. Use a 5/16" x 1" or possible a 5/16" x 1 1/4" clevis pin. There is room on the passenger side of the clutch pedal to locate the master so that the fusebox does not have to be moved. You need a 6/1 pedal ratio. The stock pedal is 12" long from pivot to center of foot pad so the clevis pin should be 2" from the pedal pivot. That is right were the bend is on the pedal but there is room towards the back edge. The area where the clevis pin needs to mount will have to be ground so that the head of the clevis pin sits flat. That leaves just fabricating the firewall bracket, a pedal stop and you will have to modify or bypass the clutch pedal starter interlock switch. The firewall bracket has to be 1/4" thick to prevent bending.
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby herkey43 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:02 pm

Thanx Manzaadict for all the info and links that have added hours of amusement and confusion to my day...
Regarding the Transmission... Is the Camaro box rotated as seen on (ebay) camaro bell housings, or is it just that the shifter is too far back?
MDL has a tailhousing conversion for a ford T5. I wonder if that will work on a Camaro box. I will call them. The S10 T5 has the right tail housing but the input shaft is too long, and requires a spacer as described here http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/s10 ... ap-adapter I Have read S10 are too weak and low geared to work well.

I have been all over trying to locate a pull type master cylinder with no suitable results.
Grandam75 does great work, but I am not willing or able to do that much surgery.
Thanx again for all your help.
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby hammerdown7 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:23 pm

I think you may want to do some measuring on the S10 T5 tail housing. I thought I had read in the past that that shifter ends up too close to the dash. The earlier T5, non-world class, in the Camaro is straight up and not tilted like the later models.

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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby monzaaddict » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:03 am

Maybe I am wrong about the s10 tailhousing but I know he used a mix of parts from camaro mustang and s10.
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby 283vega » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:52 am

i think someone here used a ford tail and had to shim the speedo thingy on the main tail shaft. Or you could skip that and use a gps electonic speedo
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby monzaaddict » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:57 pm

Maybe the guy used a mustang world class t5 with a s10 main case and a mustang clutch disc. I know he just slapped together parts he had laying around his shop. The shifter was a little too far back. A chevette t5 tailhousing looks like an option. It even has the mount for the torque arm. What type of mounts were used to install the v8 in your car. They will also affect the location of the shifter.
http://www.garage-scene.com/my-rides/19 ... graphs.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=mustang ... hfVTubM%3A

Here bill says he used a camaro t5 with a s10 tailhousing which put the shifter a little to far forward. A chevette tailhousing may be a better option. I would ask modern driveline if a chevette tailhousing can be used on a t5 with world class internals. If it can be done you need a direction changer for the speedometer cable if I am reading correctly. The chevette speedometer turns opposite the direction as ours.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34439

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... y.org&q=t5

I also found this where someone used a chevette tailhousing on a t5 in a vega successfully.
http://www.garage-scene.com/t5-into-ag- ... _swaps.htm

World class internals are going to only good for 300+ ft/lb torque. Aftermarket straight cut gears cost as much as a t56 and are going to be noisy. If you can use the chevette tailhousing on a transmission with wc internals and live with 300+ ft/lb torque capacity you should be good. Otherwise, I think you are wasting your time and money and should just wait until you can afford a t56 magnum etc.
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Re: Converting TH400 to a T5 Manual

Postby monzaaddict » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:23 pm

You said you want a pull type master. If you think you can adapt the mcleod pull master in the above youtube videos let me know I know of one available for cheap.
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