Need Help starting issues V8 vega wiring?

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Need Help starting issues V8 vega wiring?

Postby vegaman2004a » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:55 pm

I need some help trying to figure out an issue with my starter.. let me start from the beginning. Back in November at a car show my car stalled and when I went to start it.. cranked it a couple times…after a few cranks.. then I had nothing.. no starter noise …nothing.. I figured I overheated the stock starter on my 350 V-8 Vega…..its happened before.. I wrapped the starter back then and never had a problem until then… so waited awhile to cool off and still nothing 6 hours later … so push started the car and drove home and put in garage..
I then ordered a new Summit 4 HP mini racing high heat starter…a new battery, and a 100 Amp chrome alternator put those on , also wrapped the starter anyway with heat wrap.. tested the starter to make sure it was engaging by jumping it.. ok.. fine.. put everything back together and went to start the car.. nothing.. what disappointment.. I then called and spoke to someone and they said did I check the fuse on the starter relay??? Hmmm so I took the little 3 amp fuse out and put a new one in and viola! It cranked right over.. what did I learn.. after spending $600 I should of checked the fuse first.. but not complaining.. I got a better setup now.. so drove it several times , no issues…..

Two weeks ago went to a car show, came home and shut the car off to pull it in the garage… when I went to restart , same damn thing..,,nothing well 1st thing I went and did was go and replace that fuse… nothing.. still not working .. now I’m stumped.. there’s a problem here and I cant seem to figure it out.

I checked the starter…its engaging… or will engage.. I also checked the continuity at the starter relay.. I have good continuity at each of the three connections that attach to the relay…. (I assume these come from the starter)..

Heres a pic of the so called fuse

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9310 ... 001np7.jpg

initially there was a 3 amp fuse in there… does that sound right.? I question now whether this fuse has anything to do with the starter relay.. read on

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8376 ... 002ia7.jpg

I checked the continuity at all three wires that connect to the starter relay, its good….I also checked the continuity across the poles of the fuse link.. ok good.. I then checked the continuety to see if I got power out of the relay by removing the plugs on the bottom, there are two.. and checked with key off ..nothing….key on …nothing and key in starting position…nothing….

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8930 ... 003pr3.jpg

Does this mean the relay is bad.. I was told the relay has nothing to do with starting the car… but if the circuit is closed,, then oviously it wont work.. it says that in the shop manual anyway… cause I am assuming the signal coming out of the relay goes to the ignition switch on the steering column.. I went ahead and bought one of those.., do I really have to drop the column to put that one..?? no way to put it on on the column as is? How can I test that.?

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/198/ ... 004pg9.jpg

Ok heres where I am confused., I unravelled some of the wire from the fuse.. Im not sure this fuse has anything to do with the starter relay and little confused.. maybe someone can shed some light on this.. the black wire from the fuse goes into some kinda bigger wire looks like a spark plug wire.. that goes under the car.. theres a red wire from the line locks that also goes into that wire but splits off and half goes in the dash and the other half in the wire..

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8991 ... 005gv3.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4500 ... 006hu2.jpg

this then goes under the car and goes into the shifter.. when it comes out its in form of speaker looking wire.. the kind of wire that you hook speakers up with..????? but goes up to the shifter.. for the line locks button on the shifter I assume.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9243 ... 007zb4.jpg

If that’s the case, then the fuse isnt anything to do with the relay… why then is it attached to the starter relay and why did it start the car when I replaced the fuse the first time? Any comments greatly appreciated.. just trying to figure out what it is I ma having a problem with..

Also one more question.. in the pic below.. I noticed one of the linkages the arm is threaded way out.. this doesn’t look right.. is there a reason for this?



http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1442 ... 008jj7.jpg
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Postby cjbiagi » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:13 am

Wow, lots of stuff going on here. I assume that is a aftermarket relay that someone added at some point? I don't know too much about that, but a relay is just a high amperage switch controlled by a low amp switch. In other words, it is controlled by a switch that could never carry all the amps necessary to crank the starter. So, do you hear the relay energize? If you do, then your ignition switch circuit is working. If you don't then the circuit that is energizing the relay is at fault. I see you have a manual trans, it could be the clutch safety switch connected to the clutch pedal. It could be bad or maybe you have something interfering with the pedal keeping it from going down far enough.
Other things that just come to mind are battery cables or just a bad connection somewhere. You need to determine if the relay is energizing. At that point it will either lead you to the low amp circuit or the high amp circuit. As far as the linkage, something definetely is not right, there is no way you should have to adjust it like that.
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Postby vegaman2004a » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:00 am

ok I dont know where the relay came from or what off of... was in the car when i got it. When you say...do you hearthe relay energize.. what should I listen for ... a clicking? humming.. what,.. I never bothered to listen.. but I can attempt to listen and see if I hear something.. There is NO clutch safety switch.. disconnected.. Battery cables are brand new.

The linkage is that way when I bought the car 2 years ago... but looks wrong to me .. upon seeing it today
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Postby cjbiagi » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:00 am

Yes, you should hear it click. If you can locate the correct terminal you could also use a 12 volt jumper wire and see if it will energize. Basically you have two circuits, the control circuit to energize the relay and the high current circuit that provided battery voltage to the starter. Just trying to idintify which one is the culprit and then go from there.
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Re: Need Help starting issues V8 vega wiring?

Postby greg72 » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:37 am

vegaman2004a wrote:
this then goes under the car and goes into the shifter.. when it comes out its in form of speaker looking wire.. the kind of wire that you hook speakers up with..????? but goes up to the shifter.. for the line locks button on the shifter I assume.




Sounds like Clyde has you going in the right direction. Regarding the speaker wire you mentioned :

Hurst (bought by Mr. Gasket) Roll Controls - Line Loc- came packaged with wire that did indeed resemble speaker wire. I am betting that is what you are seeing on your shifter.
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Postby vegaman2004a » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:43 pm

If the starter relay is bad.... will the car still start? the idiots at autozone and discount told me it doenst matter, the relay has nothing to do with physically starting the car.. I think different.. also this fuse doesnt really have anything to do with the relay right? why then when I changed the fuse, it started before?? confused. Ill check tonight to see if it is clicking...I bought a ignition relay, has anyone ever successfully put one on without dropping the steering? is it possible ?
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Postby heinz057 » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:58 pm

do you have battery voltage to the starter main wire (one from the battery). also do you have voltage to the solinoid wire with the key in the start position. should be a purple wire. i would start there. then work backwards to see why no voltage. also try to find a wiring diagram for the car.
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Postby cjbiagi » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:51 pm

Why would a starter relay not have anything to do with the starter??? Of course it comes into play, that's what it is there for! How some people get a job amazes me. A starter pulls a lot of amps, that's the purpose of the relay. The relay contacts are designed to carry the heavy load, the solenoid of the relay just energizes it. If you hear it click you know that your ignition switch and associated wires are working. Then you have to look at the load carrying side, the heavy battery cable and the starter. Don't forget that you also need a good ground for everything to work. Too often people tend to just look at the 12volt source and forget the ground, you need both.
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Postby L79racer » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:20 pm

That 3 amp fuse is for the line lock. They taped the hot lead of the starter relay to power up the line lock. Are you sure that is a starter relay??? They solanoid on the starter should have a direct cable from your battery. Then from the ignition switch energizes the purple wire and will pull the solenoid in and crank the car. the ignition switch gets its power from the starter where the battery cable connects to it. It should be a red number 10 gauge wire that feeds the ignition and fuse block. Start by turniing the key to start position and have somebody check the purple wire to see if its hot. If it isnt it might be a bad ignition switch or loose connection. One thing is that that purple wire also goes throught the nuetral safty switch that was on the clutch pedal. Make sure it working or make sure its spliced properly if somebody by passed it. Hope this helps. Vinny
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Starter Update

Postby vegaman2004a » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:40 pm

Ok heres some more information on what I found.. I checked the purple wire and they had blocked off the clutch safety switch with a cotter pin in the two holes of the plug.. I also noticed part of the plug was melted.. why don’t know. What caused that to melt like that… I inspected the plug and appears to be still functional.. I then attached a new clutch safety switch I bought and also checked the current of the purple wires.. its fine… when I hit the key I get juice. But still no starting


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/979/ ... 001je4.jpg


that starter relay is Not the starter relay BTW,, I had a friend look at the thing today and told me it’s a horn relay DOH. So not sure if I even have a starter relay …they are built into the starter correct..?
Anyway I tried to jump the starter by touching both poles (nuts) and I get good spark but no engagement..
Doing nothing.. not good.. does this mean my starter I just paid $350 for is crap? Is there any other reason why when I jump the starter with the key on or off.. it would not engage the gear? If I got spark, it should engage.. correct? So is it all along I just got a bad starter from Summit? Is there no other reason it would not engage if I got good spark and touching both poles? Before I talk the starter off and send for another one.. Why did the plug melt? Is it possible to fry a starter? Is there not something a fuse to protect it?
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The starter has a fuseable link in the wiring

Postby vega_man_larry » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:15 am

The red 10 gauge wire that attaches to the solenoid should have a fuseable link somewhere along the run between the splice where the 10 gauge red wire begins at the firewall and the starter. If the starter shorts out this link is there to prevent an electrical overload and subsequent fire. Power should be at the end of the red 10 gauge wire as it should be connected to the same terminal on the starter solenoid as the positive battery cable is. The starter gets power directly from the battery, and the car uses the red 10 gauge wire as the power source. The purple wire is a switched wire that only should have power when the key is turned to the start position. When the key is turned to start the soleoid is energised by power being present on the purple 12 gauge wire. With power applied to the solenoid a magnetic switch energises the starter and also mechanically engages the starter gear. Find your fusable link and check if it has been melted and replace it if necessary.

You can test the system by making a jumper to replace the purple wire. Use your jumper to jump between the hot terminal on the solenoid (where the battery cable and the 10 gauge red wire are attached) and the terminal where the 12 gauge purple wire attaches. This jumper effectively replaces all the car wiring and the starter switch. When the jumper is connected in this manner the solenoid should be engaged and the starter should turn over. If the starter works when you perform this simple test you have problems in your wiring or with the switch or with your safety switch at the clutch or shifter if you have an automatic. If the starter doesn't work when you try jumpering it your starter is toast.

There is no starter relay component in the starter circuit. The solenoid provides this feature as it isolates the high current that the starter motor requires through the actions of the solenoid, which performs in the same manner that a classic relay does.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

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Postby monza75tc » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:33 am

Just a note on your linkage, it looks like the two rods have been cut and lenghtened while the third has not. Look close at the two, it looks like there is a sleeve welded on to them.

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Postby L79racer » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:47 pm

The red number ten actually feeds the fuse block and ignition. Thats were the purple wire gets its power from. So if you have power at the purple wire the fuseable link is good. Sounds like the solenoid or starter motor is bad. If you jump the starter like you said and you dont hear a loud click the solenoid is bad.
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Postby vegaman2004a » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:43 pm

Ok get this.... I called Summit and they said no problem to box up the starter and send it back for another.... I went outside and crawled under the car one more time and jumped the starter again.. just wanted to try it one more time.... and it engaged.. WTH??? I did it several times.. yup each time engaging.. unjacked the car started it up and took it for a ride.. I dont know what the hell to think..all of a sudden its working... I think its a funky starter.. Im taking it off this weekend and sending back for another.. I appreciate everyones help so much... this is a wonderful board with lots of nice members.. thank you.. I guess its the starter after all.. and will return it.. hopefully the next one wont leave me in the same mess.

Bruce
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Postby zeke » Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:25 am

The plug is melted bcuz the solenoid can easily draw 60 amps during pull in and the cotter pin connection had resistance which created a hot spot and melted the plastic.

The ford firewall solenoid mod is a good idea and soldered connections r the best. :wink:
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