Saginaw 4 speed now, want a S-10 5 speed will it fit?????

[buickapollo455]

Would like to put in a 5 speed from an s-10 pickup and lower my rpm, will it fit, in place of the 4 speed. ??? reply to c_geske@earthlink.net

[Tailssideup]

Actually, post it in here. I want to know personally.

[cammerjeff]

I know that the T-5 from a S-10 will bolt up to the Bellhousing, and I think that a S-10 T-5 tailhousing uses a straight pad for the rear mount (the F-body T-5 tail housing has a angled pad for the trans mount). But I have no idea if the shifter will come through the stock hole. The only t-5 conversion I did was replacing a Saginaw 4-speed with a T-5 from a 87 F-body in my 1969 Firebird Sprint.
In that aplication I had to fab a adaptor bracket for the rear mount, and that solved both the angle of the mount pad, and the longer leanth of were the trans mount is located on the trans. I had to enlarge the hole for the shifter 1/4" to the rear for the shifter to work.
A S-10 T-5 has the shifter located a few inches forward of a F-body T-5, and I am no familure with were the H-body shifter is located in relatin to trans. Sorry no help really on the shifter.
And you can use the driveshaft yoke from the saginaw trans, but you probebly will have to shorten you driveshaft, or have a new one made up. as the T-5 is a few inches longer overall than a saginaw or muncie 4-speed.

I hope this helps alittle anyway.

[spencerforhire]

From the different threads there's been on this subject, It appears that the S10 trans has the shifter quite far forward from the H-body's hole in the floor; whereas the F-body trans has the shifter too far back. I managed to scrounge up a Chevette(!!!) T-5 which has a much closer to stock shifter location, along with the ultra short mainshaft and tail housing that when swapped onto an S-10 or F-body trans, ends up the same length as a Saginaw. This project is still just a pile of parts in my garage at this stage, but somebody else on this forum has done this "crossbreed" T-5 build already; I suggest using the search function.

[NixVegaGT]

I've been meaning to catch up with your Chevette T5 project... Gotten anywhere?

[vegagtfan]

I did the samething to my 76 Gt Hatchback took my 4 speed sagy out and put a 5 speed borgwarner in it to lower my RPM's I took it out of a 76 Monza coupe and it works just fine sure wish I did not have to take the sagy out I sure did like that tranny but had to lower them RPM's.

Travis
76-72 Vega GT Hatchbacks

[spencerforhire]

The light-duty T-50 is a great swap for a 4 or 6cyl car, but they don't last behind a V8- trust me on this, I have the broken parts to prove it! There was apparently a stronger V8 version of the T-50 made for the ugly, slope-tailed 78 260cid Cutlass S, but what was the last time anyone saw a manual trans Oldsmobile? I never did like that across-the-gate 1-2 shift anyway, so the stronger T-5 is the better choice, at least for me.
In response to a question asked months ago, the Chevette tail shaft swap is STILL only a pile of parts- the Vega project keeps getting shuffled to the bottom of the pile.

[NixVegaGT]

I found out something the Mercur SC 3.8 swap guys are doing. They use the front World Class case from the Ford to match the bellhousing bolt pattern. Then they use the GM rear housing to put the shifter in the right location.

It appears from the images that the Ford shifter location is halfway between the S10 location and the F-body location. Here's some pix.

First the S10:



See how far forward the shifter location is? WOW! Now the F-body:



Big difference. Here's the Ford WC T5:




My point is: It could be that we can use a much more plentiful (than Chevette) Ford WC rear housing on a GM main housing to match the bellhousing. This is especially important to me because I have a custom bellhousing that takes the GM "T350" bolt pattern. BUT this would work for the standard GM bellhousings... I'll post more as it comes.

I've been in contact with G-Force Transmissions about a straight-cut dog-ring gear set for the t5. It's not cheap but it would be indestructible for my application of around 360 lb/ft of torque. It would have that "Rock Crusher" whine I love too!

[greg72]

NIC!!! you are the MAN!

I would love to find a reasonable way to upgrade my Mirage to a 5-spd. So I am very interested in anything you find out about this t-5 tailshaft swap.


Then again, a 5-spd with a Muncie whine? SWEET!

Gimme

[spencerforhire]

Hmmm... the Mustang T-5 looks exactly like the Chevette one(minus the giant input shaft); I wonder why GM used a Ford case? I also wonder if the Ford output shaft and tailhousing would be compatible with the GM speedo gear. I'll check with a friend who builds up 5.0's to see if he's got a free, broken Mustang trans I can autopsy to see what will interchange.

[NixVegaGT]

I was thinking the same thing, Spencer. From what I've read I think the "Ford" pattern is actually the standard Borg/Warner T5 pattern and GM made them build a case that would fit there "Muncie" pattern. The "Ford" pattern is more plentiful. Knowing what will exchange is a great help. It's likely we will have to fab something. Here's a pic I found:



I was looking at trying to find a decent World Class T5 from a Camaro and a back half from a Mustang and build it. Used WC T5's go for around $500 locally and about $350 on ebay. BTW be absolutely certain they are WC t5s before you bid. They have to come out of an '88 or later Camaro/Firebird. I guess WC gearboxes have a couple housing mods that make them more adaptable to an upgraded gear set. I've still got to find out more about that. So I'm up around $700 before I even start rebuilding... We'll get into that later...

OK so the estimated torque handling difference between the WC and nonWC? 265 for nonWC and 300 for WC. I'm not sure how they come by this number. I'm sure they are worst case. I've heard of tons of guys racing these (WC T5) with no trouble for quite sometime. There isn't that much difference. If I was just swapping a street motor in I'd just spend a couple hundred bucks and get the nonWC. Get an S10 version They go for like $75! Get the "Ford" tailhousing and you've got a nice 5-speed for the street for a few hondo.

OK it's not a direct swap. You've got to find a place to mount the torque arm. I don't know what the overall length is but I'm betting it's different than the Sag4. Then theres the tailshaft: Need to adapt the driveshaft to the output shaft of the Ford T5.

SO back to G-Force. I was planning on finding two T5s and splicing them together with a rebuild and one of G-Forces Straight-cut Dog Ring gear kits: $1500. This moves the torque rating up more towards 450.. There are a few gear options there:

3.22 2.94 2.46
2.05 1.94 1.54
1.34 1.34 1.22
1.00 1.00 1.00
.59* .59* .59*
.73* .73* .73*
.90 .90 .90

The one's with stars are syncronized 5th gears. I don't think 5th gear is that critical to me and that .59 looks like a pretty awesome highway gear. At $1500, not cheap. You do get a pretty stout 5-speed that only weighs 75 lbs. For $2500 you can get a brand new T5 from them in the configuration we've been talking about (GM main case, Ford tailhousing) with the Straight-cut Dog Ring set installed ready to bolt on.




There are a couple other options out there for guys who have more bell housing options than me. The later Camaros had Tremecs and TKOs. They both tougher, and a big difference in weight. About twice as heavy at 150 lbs. I think. If I've done my research right.

I've got time until I need to buy anything so I'm looking around a bit. I'll post new info when I get it.

[greg72]

thanks for posting this Nic , and keep up the research.

I like the idea of a lightweight, strong 5 spd trans.

$2500 seems like a decent deal , considering how much Muncies are going for these days and those, of course, are only 4 spds.

[spencerforhire]

Whoa there, $2500 is waaay out of my league! For that kind of money I'd be looking for a used Doug Nash or maybe move up to a 6-speed. I'll stick with my FREE Chevette tailshaft housing(which has a torque arm mount) and the 89 Camaro trans I scored for $300.
P.S.- All of my T-5 parts are STILL in a large pile on my garage floor.

[NixVegaGT]

LOL! That's what I was saying about building a street T5. I think it would work good for most applications in stock form. Get an S10 T5 main housing and put the "Ford" tail housing on it. It's rated for 265 lbs. of torque. I have no idea what that means but the uprated World Class version is only rated for another 35 lbs. I think if you aren't regularly racing it would work great.

I kinda want something I can really beat up. We'll see what happens. I may build one like this and see how long it lasts. I still have to find out what the case differences are between the WC and nonWC. Nothing in my research is conclusive at this point.

[NixVegaGT]

OK so here's the update. I talked with G-Force again. The nonWC is not upgradeable because the bearing diameters are different so the case is not usable from a nonWC car. That answers that.

What I can do though is find a more plentiful Ford WC T5 then buy a case and the straight-cut dog ring kit from G-force. Then we are looking at more like $1700 or so.

SO that's a bit more palatable. I'll keep you all posted.